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How do you 'COUNT' Music Notation?



 
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: How do you 'COUNT' Music Notation? Reply with quote

There's been a few threads lately that rub up against this but 'Counting' complicated rhythms (or even simple ones for that matter!) has been the main cause for my terrible 'reading' skills... I never 'LEARNED' a method of HOW people do this!

Without any foundation/technique in this mathematic aspect of reading, I pretty much GRIND TO A HAULT trying to figure out these written rhythms!!

SOOO...(sorry Ed ).... Is there a 'Method' out there that just concentrates on this technique??

Thanks!
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did a google search for “method for counting rhythms” and got several results.

I have generally taught students the system labeled “Numbers – 1-e-&-a” on the following web page:

https://makemomentsmatter.org/classroom-ideas/rhythm-syllable-systems-what-to-use-and-why/

The advantage of this is being able to count rhythms faster than you can single tongue, if you're trying to get the passage up to, say, a fast performance speed. Counting rhythms quickly is not as easy using the “Eastman Counting System,” which many school band directors use:

http://ocdmusician.com/images/eastman.pdf

The advantage of this method, though, is the student can “exercise the single tongue action” while counting, which kills two birds with one stone, so to speak, during the learning process. There are other methods that are outlined in the first website above, but those are generally found used in lower level education. Oh, and I like to use the Eastman method for counting 16th notes in 6/8 time:

1 ta la ta li ta 2 ta la ta li ta
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would highly recommend Rhythmic Training by Robert Starer. 10 minutes a day with this book away from the horn will greatly improve your reading skills (used at Juilliard).
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to the suggestions above, this is what I wrote in the Pedagogy forum in response to a question about reading, but this is pretty basic:

“Find the shortest (regarding note value) note in a measure and subdivide the entire measure into those note values.
Example: a measure in 4/4 has a dotted quarter note, an eighth note, four sixteenth notes and a quarter note. Divide everything into sixteenth note values; the dotted quarter equals six sixteenth notes, the eighth equals two, the four sixteenth notes are four (duh!) and last quarter note equals four.

So to start with you could count it: “one e and a 2 e” (dotted quarter), “and a” (eighth note), “3 e and a” (four sixteenths) “4 e and a” (last quarter note). When you play it, if you count the subdivisions of the notes mentally as you sustain the notes, you should be able to play the rhythms exactly as they are written.”

This is not a “method”, per se, but it’s a good start to learning how to figure out a rhythm without hearing it first.... which is what a good musician should be able to do, IMO.

Brad
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: How do you 'COUNT' Music Notation? Reply with quote

mrhappy wrote:
There's been a few threads lately that rub up against this but 'Counting' complicated rhythms (or even simple ones for that matter!) has been the main cause for my terrible 'reading' skills... I never 'LEARNED' a method of HOW people do this!

Without any foundation/technique in this mathematic aspect of reading, I pretty much GRIND TO A HAULT trying to figure out these written rhythms!!

SOOO...(sorry Ed ).... Is there a 'Method' out there that just concentrates on this technique??

Thanks!


To me, the idea that there is a method or system or technique to reading rhythms is a flawed approach. While this may not sound complimentary, the fact you have asked the question is proof of the positive attitude you have to music.

BUT, rhythms, and reading them is nothing more than a matter of literacy. So, if one has problems reading rhythms, it's time to go bak to basics and start to work form the bottom up, no methods, systems or shortcuts.

There is a need for some basic data, such as metrical relationships, but this is nothing more than a few charts of whole notes into two half notes, etc. (insert British names such a semibreve and minim if you like).

Then it's just a matter of sitting down to read. Get a book such as Starer (already mentioned) or simple pieces and away you go. It takes time. It takes persistence. It takes a LOT of repetition.

There is also another way to look at this...

One student who came to me last year thought she had bad reading skills. I actually fact, she ad poor production skills in the area of breathing and air flow. This was causing her to block when attempting to play something unfamiliar. That made her associate reading new music as the issue, when it was actually the way she played made it so hard to get notes out she got stuck. A bit of work on this area and she reads like a trooper. And sounds better, plays with more confidence, smiles more etc. etc.

So, look part your reading to other trumpet playing skills. Might they be causing a 'system conflict'?

cheers

Andy
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another vote for counting the longer notes in terms of the shortest notes. I do that with my daughters sometimes.

Four eighth notes are counted as "one-and-two-and", in general.
So say there's a dotted quarter followed by three eight notes:

dotted quarter = "one-and-two", the three eights = "and-three-and"

This is breaking up the dotted quarter into "eighth note pieces" so that you can correctly measure its duration along side the following eight notes.

It's like adding two fractions with different bottom numbers. You have to multiply both the top and bottom parts of one of the fractions by a number that will change its bottom number to match that of the other fraction.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Guys... this was JUST the type of stuff I was looking for!
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:

I have generally taught students the system labeled “Numbers – 1-e-&-a” on the following web page:

https://makemomentsmatter.org/classroom-ideas/rhythm-syllable-systems-what-to-use-and-why/

The advantage of this is being able to count rhythms faster than you can single tongue, if you're trying to get the passage up to, say, a fast performance speed. Counting rhythms quickly is not as easy using the “Eastman Counting System,” which many school band directors use:

http://ocdmusician.com/images/eastman.pdf

The advantage of this method, though, is the student can “exercise the single tongue action” while counting, which kills two birds with one stone, so to speak, during the learning process. There are other methods that are outlined in the first website above, but those are generally found used in lower level education. Oh, and I like to use the Eastman method for counting 16th notes in 6/8 time:

1 ta la ta li ta 2 ta la ta li ta


I found these different systems kind of fascinating!

Derek Reaban wrote:
I would highly recommend Rhythmic Training by Robert Starer. 10 minutes a day with this book away from the horn will greatly improve your reading skills (used at Juilliard).


Hello Amazon!!
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