Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:32 pm Post subject: Shakes
So to my slight horror i learned today that in 3 months, my high school band is going to play "Danzas Cubanas" ans besides range to what i think is an E above C, theres are mutliple instances where i need to do a shake.
i have no idea how to do one or how to practice for it, if someone can give me tips or exercises on how to do or build one up, id greatly appreciate it!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject:
The real answer is to ask your band director what type of 'sound' or 'effect' is desired.
My guess is that what's needed is just a 'little something' to make those notes stand-out a bit - maybe just a little more 'edge' to the sound. If the piece is for a formal competition or judging, then learning what a 'shake' is, IN THE CONTEXT of 'standard performance' of THAT piece, might be needed.
And regarding high notes, the band director should already know what the 'playable range' is for the band members. Sure, try to be able to play it, and practice to improve - but DON'T hurt yourself in the process! Playing 'good sounding' notes an octave lower is better than playing badly.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
The real answer is to ask your band director what type of 'sound' or 'effect' is desired.
My guess is that what's needed is just a 'little something' to make those notes stand-out a bit - maybe just a little more 'edge' to the sound. If the piece is for a formal competition or judging, then learning what a 'shake' is, IN THE CONTEXT of 'standard performance' of THAT piece, might be needed.
And regarding high notes, the band director should already know what the 'playable range' is for the band members. Sure, try to be able to play it, and practice to improve - but DON'T hurt yourself in the process! Playing 'good sounding' notes an octave lower is better than playing badly.
Jay
Hi,
A shake is a shake.
If you want to do what is written then you have to do a shake- not just add 'a little edge to the sound'.
Ultimately, if the instruction 'shake' is written, context doesn't really change what that means...
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:10 pm Post subject:
LSOfanboy wrote:
... A shake is a shake.
If you want to do what is written then you have to do a shake- not just add 'a little edge to the sound'.
Ultimately, if the instruction 'shake' is written, context doesn't really change what that means...
-------------------------------------------
The OP is in a high school band which is attempting a very ambitious piece (I'm not familiar with it). And yes you're correct about doing a proper 'shake' (if that can be accomplished). But what is the 'shake' for that piece - an 'out-of-control lip trill' as mentioned earlier? And then of course, what should/can be done as a substitute for the 'shake' if it cannot be performed well?
For a musician who claims to be capable of doing a good job of performing at the highest level, then being able to do the proper 'shake' is likely a requirement. But in a typical 'school' environment, there has to be allowance for steps taken to avoid 'crash and burn' events.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Trying to develop range on a deadline is a losing proposition.
What your concert experience *shouldn't* be is you sitting there obsessing for the whole piece "am I gonna get that E? am I gonna get that E??"
You're not gonna get it. Even just barely squeezing it out in Hail-Mary fashion with no control or musicality is no good either. You need to have not only that note but some range over it and have already nailed that note many, many times both in range practice and in the context of performing that piece.
Sure, split notes can happen in any range but when you get to it in performance you should have a fundamental confidence that you *know* you can nail it - it should be just another note to you, not something that's a big, scary question mark in your mind. Can you play say the G on top of the staff without much problem? It should be like that.
Shakes are no big deal. It's a rapid slur between two partials facilitated by a mild, subtle shaking of your right hand - for me most of the force comes from the tip of the thumb between the 1st & 2nd valves. It has more of a ragged-edge sound than a lip trill. Once you get a shake going you'll say - oh hey, that's easy. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:39 pm Post subject:
You may have already found this, but just in case, there are several recordings of this piece on YouTube. For example: https://youtu.be/2czVsC7PoAg
If I were preparing this piece, I'd focus on accuracy, rhythm and timing. You want to be able to get around on the part and make it sound easy, with great rhythm and an enthusiastic spirit. That will make this piece sound good. The shakes would be a nice decoration, but playing with style, spirit and enthusiasm is more important.
As far as preparing shakes, I've always found it helpful to work on Arban p. 44, exercises 22 and 23. I also work on exercise 23 using the rhythmic pattern in exercise 22. The Arban exercises aren't exactly shakes, but they will help you develop the flexibility and control you need to play a bona fide shake. When you work on them, just do a little bit at a time. Don't wear yourself out. A little bit, every day, and stopping while you still feel fresh will help you a lot more than grinding down your chops. Then listen to the recordings to get the style of the shakes (or listen to A Toda Cuba le Gusta, with Manuel Mirabal on trumpet--a master of this style.) But if the shakes aren't happening by performance time, let them go and get the overall style right.
Good luck, and have fun! Don't fear the music--enjoy it! You should sound like you're having fun when you play it. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Shakes are no big deal. It's a rapid slur between two partials facilitated by a mild, subtle shaking of your right hand - for me most of the force comes from the tip of the thumb between the 1st & 2nd valves. It has more of a ragged-edge sound than a lip trill. Once you get a shake going you'll say - oh hey, that's easy.
Right on. I have taught many high school students how to do a shake. It really isn't that complicated. If they are going to go on and have a commercial/big band career then they can refine it later on.
Robert P wrote:
You're not gonna get it. Even just barely squeezing it out in Hail-Mary fashion with no control or musicality is no good either. You need to have not only that note but some range over it and have already nailed that note many, many times both in range practice and in the context of performing that piece.
Respectfully, this is a very crappy sentiment Robert. I'm not sure how much teaching you do, if any at all but we have no info about the OP here. Maybe his range is high C. Three months is plenty of time to achieve that WITH GUIDED, CONSISTENT PRACTICE. Yes. It is possible. We are not talking about double C, or doing Brandenburg. Plus, the bigger concern seems to be shakes, not range.
Also, I really don't command notes above high concert F#, but I have played concert F and F# in many situations without fail, and with lots of power. It's all about HOW you work.
Auraix: What is your current range? Do you have a special mouthpiece for playing lead stuff? Make your work easier!! Not saying it solves problems or adds range, but it is easier for me to nail my high stuff on a lead piece than on my orchestral stuff. (Easier.. not impossible!) _________________ (List horns here)
Sorry! I recently found out the highest note is a D, not an E, sorry again! My range with clarity goes up to an Eb above high C, anything higher will not come out.
I want to get shakes down for that added flair, but im not quite sure how im supposed to practice, which is why im doing lip slurs now and range exercises.
You're not gonna get it. Even just barely squeezing it out in Hail-Mary fashion with no control or musicality is no good either. You need to have not only that note but some range over it and have already nailed that note many, many times both in range practice and in the context of performing that piece.
Respectfully, this is a very crappy sentiment Robert. I'm not sure how much teaching you do, if any at all but we have no info about the OP here.
You think the assertion that you shouldn't be trying to play notes in a concert band performance that you don't already have solidly in your back pocket is a crappy sentiment? Because the results are typically outstanding?
Quote:
Maybe his range is high C. Three months is plenty of time to achieve that WITH GUIDED, CONSISTENT PRACTICE. Yes. It is possible.
Maybe, maybe not. I didn't say he shouldn't keep working on his range I said hoping/planning/expecting to have the range by a certain date is a bad plan.
"Consistent guided practice" by itself isn't a universal panacea. I was the poster child for consistent, guided practice but didn't have a high C I could count on after years of playing, because I hadn't found the "how" and none of the teachers I encountered had a clue how to help me.
Why hasn't consistent, guided practice yielded you a range over an F#? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
You're not gonna get it. Even just barely squeezing it out in Hail-Mary fashion with no control or musicality is no good either. You need to have not only that note but some range over it and have already nailed that note many, many times both in range practice and in the context of performing that piece.
Respectfully, this is a very crappy sentiment Robert. I'm not sure how much teaching you do, if any at all but we have no info about the OP here.
You think the assertion that you shouldn't be trying to play notes in a concert band performance that you don't already have solidly in your back pocket is a crappy sentiment? Because the results are typically outstanding?
Quote:
Maybe his range is high C. Three months is plenty of time to achieve that WITH GUIDED, CONSISTENT PRACTICE. Yes. It is possible.
Maybe, maybe not. I didn't say he shouldn't keep working on his range I said hoping/planning/expecting to have the range by a certain date is a bad plan.
"Consistent guided practice" by itself isn't a universal panacea. I was the poster child for consistent, guided practice but didn't have a high C I could count on after years of playing, because I hadn't found the "how" and none of the teachers I encountered had a clue how to help me.
Why hasn't consistent, guided practice yielded you a range over an F#?
Wow. just wow. So, No. I think you just telling someone they won't have it is crappy. Funny that when your pedagogical thoughts were challenged, you instantly attacked me and asked why I could ONLY play as high as G# over high C. Shows your true character.
Consistent practice can and has yielded higher than G# above High C for me. I want to clarify that G# above high C is just fine for most things outside of special circumstances. It allows me to perform most Bach works save for Brandenburg 2 without fail. I can make higher notes than that come out that have body, such as double C, but the volume isn't near what the G# and below are. I don't need anything higher than that professionally on a regular basis and if I did, I would have it. _________________ (List horns here)
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:38 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
.......
You're not gonna get it. Even just barely squeezing it out in Hail-Mary fashion with no control or musicality is no good either. You need to have not only that note but some range over it and have already nailed that note many, many times both in range practice and in the context of performing that piece.
.........
Hmmm. I agree with much of what you said after the first sentence, but personally, I would never declare that someone I had never heard or seen play is “not gonna get it”, and I especially would not make that negative statement to a student. I try to be very realistic with my students, and I believe that most of present day attitudes of giving kids trophies just for showing up are a huge disservice to kids. And I totally agree that trying to develop range or any other technique on a deadline is very difficult and probably not adviseable, but the OP is a student, I would not be that blunt, ESPECIALLY since we have not heard him.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
.......
You're not gonna get it. Even just barely squeezing it out in Hail-Mary fashion with no control or musicality is no good either. You need to have not only that note but some range over it and have already nailed that note many, many times both in range practice and in the context of performing that piece.
.........
Hmmm. I agree with much of what you said after the first sentence, but personally, I would never declare that someone I had never heard or seen play is “not gonna get it”, and I especially would not make that negative statement to a student. I try to be very realistic with my students, and I believe that most of present day attitudes of giving kids trophies just for showing up are a huge disservice to kids. And I totally agree that trying to develop range or any other technique on a deadline is very difficult and probably not adviseable, but the OP is a student, I would not be that blunt, ESPECIALLY since we have not heard him.
Brad
I'm curious what timeline is appropriate. Can OP try to achieve this 6 more than from now or is that too steep a deadline? My other question is this: he basically suggested lots of practice and then lambasted the other guy saying that practice isn't the answer so then what is? It's also moot since OP chimed in saying he can play Eb and only needs a D.
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