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kalijah
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 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Varying speed of air, varying pressure and volume of air |
Air power = air pressure x air flow
air "speed" and air "volume" are of no concern. (Unless lung air volume gets depleted. Then an inhalation is required.)
air pressure is the only air factor that we actually directly control (with the blowing effort). The flow follows. But the goal is not flow. The goal is tone.
This point that Drew made is worth re-posting:
| Quote: | My point: don't get hung up on how to "use your air". There's just no such thing. It comes in, and goes out. Many players use air as a crutch to compensate for an inefficient embouchure, so they tell each other the secret is always "more air!".
Ultimately, focus on finding and cementing great embouchure technique, because that's where trumpet players are made and destroyed. Get your chops working correctly, and you're 90% of the way there...and, you'll never think about air again. |
AMEN! |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | air "volume" are of no concern. ( |
Do tell.
I'm curious what you think has to happen as far as the air to play a given pitch louder.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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To play louder I increase the air pressure by more blowing effort. The air flow will also increase as a result.
The "volume" of air used depends on the time integral of flow if the flow varies, such as with a crescendo.
For a constant air flow, air volume = flow x time. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | To play louder I increase the air pressure by more blowing effort. The air flow will also increase as a result. |
I'm curious how you reconcile this with your previous statement that air volume is of no concern.
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gabriel127
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted
Last edited by gabriel127 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gabriel127 wrote: | Regarding the argument of little kids playing high notes in a musical context:
I recall seeing a video of Ruben Simeo playing the high F at the end of "Carnival of Venice" at 8 years of age.
Watch this tiny, skinny, scrawny little girl play up to a double A and she even gets a piece of a B. |
You're ignoring the qualifiers I stated. Ruben was clearly a prodigy but he barely touches that F. I don't believe that on his best day at that age even when he was fresh that he could play a soaring, powerful F/G let alone a soaring, powerful dub C.
I'm familiar with the video of the girl - she kisses the high notes she gets, she'd get buried by any decent stage band, clearly couldn't play lead on a chart that goes to that range with anything like the power needed to be a real lead player. If she keeps working she'll probably get there as she grows musically and physically.
These are kids with advanced coaching and neither of them have anything like a strong high range nor would anyone rationally expect them to - they don't have the air power yet.
Any real high-noting you've heard Louis Dowdeswell do was when he was a lot older than 8.
You made a statement that isn't supported by reality to support another statement that doesn't hold water.
Yes, air is important.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Robert is right. These kids are great players, and have developed the "feel" or "knack" of the higher notes. But they're not playing those notes all that loud and the reason they can't is they haven't developed the air power necessary for full volume (loud enough to cut through a big band) high notes.
And Drew is right when he says it's not about air flow and that very little air needs to flow through the horn (or none at all in the case of the experiment done on that YouTube video he posted. BUT: Air PRESSURE is very important when it comes to playing loud and/or high notes. Arnold Jacobs claimed that each octave increase in range at a given volume of sound requires an approximate doubling of the air pressure supplied. This has since been proven experimentally several times.
The research paper Blowing pressure, power, and spectrum in trumpet playing, by N. H. Fletchera and A. Tarnopolsky, School of Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering, Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra 2600, Australia concerns one of the research projects that confirms Jacobs' postulate. It also tells us that trumpet players are able to generate as much as 55% more thoracic air pressure than "similarly fit young men who did not play any brass instrument". Note that the players in this study were not even players capable of playing all the way up to Double C. All but one were just amateur level players. One was a professional trumpet player from a major orchestra. And not by coincidence, he was the one who could generate the most thoracic air pressure and play the loudest, highest notes in the experiment.
An excerpt of the research paper:
https://i.postimg.cc/nhZXzZM6/Blowing-pressure-power-and-spectrum-in-trumpet-playing-Figure.jpg
| Quote: | I. MEASUREMENTS
Measurements were made on three players: a professional orchestral trumpeter (GC), and two experienced amateur players (NH and KB). In the measurements to be reported, they all played standard Bb trumpets, but some measurements were also made of GC playing a Bb cornet, and a piccolo trumpet in A. A catheter tube, about 2 mm in external diameter, was inserted in one corner of the player’s mouth and the blowing pressure was measured on one of two bourdon gauges that had been calibrated against a water manometer. Acoustic measurements were made at a distance of 1–1.5 m from the horn mouth on the axis of the instrument and later corrected to the equivalent level at 1 m distance. The A-weighted sound pressure level was noted and the sound itself recorded for later analysis. In the case of player GC, the measurements were made in an anechoic chamber, while for the other two players a normally furnished living room was used. Because the frequency response of the microphones used fell off above 16 kHz, the reported measurements extend only to this frequency.
The playing tests consisted of a series of steady notes of given pitch played with increasing loudness from pianissimo up to the fortissimo limit for the particular player. The note pitches covered the whole compass of each instrument in an appropriately transposed CFCF . . . sequence, or something close to that.
Figure 1 summarizes the measured results for professional GC playing a standard Bb trumpet. Several points are worthy of immediate note. The first is that, in agreement with Bouhuys and the common knowledge of players, there is a threshold pressure required for the sounding of any note, and this threshold increases steadily with the pitch of the note. Second, there is an upper limit to the pressure that can be used for any note, and again this limit increases as we ascend the scale. It is noteworthy that the highest blowing pressure used by this particular player, who is of solid physique, is about 25 kPa. This pressure is much higher than the normal systolic (maximum) blood pressure, which is typically only about 18 kPa, so that it is small wonder that the player reported physiological difficulties when required to play at this level! To appreciate the magnitude of this pressure excess, the graph should be replotted with blowing pressure on a linear scale. Physiological measurements by Fiz et al.6 on the maximum expiratory pressure that can be achieved by trumpet players—not while playing the trumpet, or indeed while actually expelling air—yielded a value of 23 (+ or - 5) kPa, in confirmation of the general level of this result, while they found that similarly fit young men who did not play any brass instrument were able to achieve expiratory pressures of only 19 (+ or - 1) kPa. Presumably muscle training accounts for this difference. |
Note that in the above experiment, the player only played up to a full power Concert High C (our High D) and was generating 2.5 kPa (3.6 psi) of air pressure to do it. To play a full power Double High C requires approximately 4 kPa (nearly 6 psi) - an amount that is triple the amount of air pressure that "fit young men" can generate.
(Bold added for emphasis.)
| kalijah wrote: | | ANYONE, banning a physical defect, has the air required to play any note. |
If you are referring to the ability to generate the required air pressure to play those notes:
Any note up to around a full power High C or maybe even High D? Yep.
Notes in the full power G above High C to Double High C range? Nope.
I wonder if my post will start Page 7...
Cheers,
John Mohan
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I've added italics to some sections concerning 'loudness', 'air power', and 'air pressure' -
| John Mohan wrote: | Robert is right. These kids are great players, and have developed the "feel" or "knack" of the higher notes. But they're not playing those notes
all that loud
and the reason they can't is they haven't developed the
air power necessary for full volume
(loud enough to cut through a big band) high notes.
And Drew is right when he says it's not about air flow and that very little air needs to flow through the horn (or none at all in the case of the experiment done on that YouTube video he posted. BUT:
Air PRESSURE is very important when it comes to playing loud and/or high notes. |
--------------------------------------------------
The kids being able to play the 'high notes' (even at a low volume) verifies that they can produce adequate 'air pressure' to do so - because they did it.
The 'air power' needed for full volume is a combination of being able to generate the internal 'air pressure', and to also produce a large 'air flow' while still maintaining the needed 'air pressure'. The large 'air flow' is needed to produce enough dimensional 'lip movement' (the energy source) to achieve loudness. At lower amounts of 'air flow', the high notes can still be 'sounded', but at lower volume.
my pet nit wanted to be picked ...
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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John wrote: | Quote: | | Note that in the above experiment, the player only played up to a full power Concert High C (our High D) and was generating 2.5 kPa (3.6 psi) of air pressure to do it. To play a full power Double High C requires approximately 4 kPa (nearly 6 psi) - an amount that is triple the amount of air pressure that "fit young men" can generate. |
Note that this was the maximum pressure that the player could generate. Which was also measured separately.
You are assuming, without data, that a double C could be played at the same loudness as his max-pressure D. AND you are assuming , also without data, that 6 psi could be generated. You assume too much. You are speculating, and poorly at that.
Also, loudness is affected by the efficiency of the player and the impedance of the instrument. Not JUST air pressure.
A couple of problems with this experiment design is that it does not measure the total sound power generated. A point measurement of SPL is not the sound power output. Sound projection pattern varies with pitch. Even further skewing is introduced by using an A-weighted SPL measurement. Both of these misrepresent the power output of the lower-pressure and lower-pitched notes.
High notes of up to double C and beyond can be played with the pressure that a child could generate. They may not be loud but they can be played.
Higher notes do require increasing pressure for similar sound output, or even less.
Air pressure does not determine the pitch played.
Last edited by kalijah on Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:44 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Jay wrote:
| Quote: | | The 'air power' needed for full volume is a combination of being able to generate the internal 'air pressure', and to also produce a large 'air flow' while still maintaining the needed 'air pressure'. |
Air pressure and flow are, at best, concurrent for increasing loudness on a note. Both increase as one plays louder. The flow is also not what I consider as "large" especially for high notes.
| Quote: | | The large 'air flow' is needed to produce enough dimensional 'lip movement' (the energy source) to achieve loudness. |
No, The lip movement is not the energy source. The air pulses are. The air power is pressure x flow. Both increase proportionally for loudness. The player controls the loudness with air pressure. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | The kids being able to play the 'high notes' (even at a low volume) verifies that they can produce adequate 'air pressure' to do so - because they did it. |
The original point I was refuting was the hyperbole that anyone over 7 could generate the air power to blow a nice solid G and dub C, that air doesn't matter. In the examples cited neither of them hit notes I would classify as big.
Air matters.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | The kids being able to play the 'high notes' (even at a low volume) verifies that they can produce adequate 'air pressure' to do so - because they did it. |
It proves they can produce adequate air pressure to play a particular high note at a lower sound volume. It does not prove they can play that same note at a louder sound volume (which requires even more air pressure).
And yes, there is more air flow on a loud high note than on the same high note played softly - but not all that much of a difference. There is far more air flow on a mezzo piano G below Low C than there is on a Fortissimo G above High C. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: |
You are assuming, without data, that a double C could be played at the same loudness as his max-pressure D. AND you are assuming , also without data, that 6 psi could be generated. You assume too much. You are speculating, and poorly at that. |
I am assuming nothing. I am merely stating that in order for a player to play a Double High C at the same level of volume as his High C, he's going to have to generate approximately twice as much air pressure to do it. And yes I am speculating - based on an extrapolation of what we already know (that each octave climb at a given volume level requires an approximately doubling of the supplied air pressure).
| kalijah wrote: | | High notes of up to double C and beyond can be played with the pressure that a child could generate. They may not be loud but they can be played. |
Now that is an assumption. And a rather silly one in my opinion. I was a little hesitant to write that second sentence (the one with "silly" in it). But then I remembered that you claimed that my speculating was done "poorly". So you had it coming. 
| kalijah wrote: | | Higher notes do require increasing pressure for similar sound output, or even less. |
Hallelujah! We agree.
| kalijah wrote: | | Air pressure does not determine the pitch played. |
If you mean air pressure alone does not determine pitch, then I totally agree with you.
Can you answer one question? Darryl can we both agree that whatever the exact mechanics involved in playing through the range of a trumpet are, the way for any one to develop the ability to play the full range of the instrument is to practice, and develop both the coordination to play the full range, and the required strength to do so?
Good night! |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | Jay wrote:
| Quote: | | The 'air power' needed for full volume is a combination of being able to generate the internal 'air pressure', and to also produce a large 'air flow' while still maintaining the needed 'air pressure'. |
Air pressure and flow are, at best, concurrent for increasing loudness on a note. Both increase as one plays louder. The flow is also not what I consider as "large" especially for high notes.
| Quote: | | The large 'air flow' is needed to produce enough dimensional 'lip movement' (the energy source) to achieve loudness. |
No, The lip movement is not the energy source. The air pulses are. The air power is pressure x flow. Both increase proportionally for loudness. The player controls the loudness with air pressure. |
Oh gosh. The apocalypse might be upon us. Because in reference to what Darryl wrote above, I completely agree. History is made. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Damn. Still only page 6. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: | | The kids being able to play the 'high notes' (even at a low volume) verifies that they can produce adequate 'air pressure' to do so - because they did it. |
The original point I was refuting was the hyperbole that anyone over 7 could generate the air power to blow a nice solid G and dub C, that air doesn't matter. In the examples cited neither of them hit notes I would classify as big.
Air matters. |
+1
Are we on page 7 yet? |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Now that is an assumption. And a rather silly one in my opinion. |
Not at all. If one can play a note above high C even up to G or double C at the air pressure which is equivalent to what a child could generate that could easily be proven.
Finding a child who could play in that range of the instrument would be more difficult than finding a unicorn. Not because of the air pressure that they can generate but due to the required embouchure skill.
| Quote: | | The original point I was refuting was the hyperbole that anyone over 7 could generate the air power to blow a nice solid G and dub C, that air doesn't matter. In the examples cited neither of them hit notes I would classify as big.
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I don't think anyone introduced the loudness of the note into the discussion. The point was in regard to pitch played, not the sound volume. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Finding a child who could play in that range of the instrument would be more difficult than finding a unicorn. Not because of the air pressure that they can generate but due to the required embouchure skill. |
It's due to a lack of both air power and embouchure strength.
| Quote: | | The original point I was refuting was the hyperbole that anyone over 7 could generate the air power to blow a nice solid G and dub C, that air doesn't matter. In the examples cited neither of them hit notes I would classify as big.
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| Quote: | | I don't think anyone introduced the loudness of the note into the discussion. The point was in regard to pitch played, not the sound volume. |
Gabriel deleted the original post but his statement was that a child could hit them solid/big in support of the notion that air power isn't important. No they can't and yes it is.
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area51recording
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| This is the thing that AMAZES me about the horn we play! Take two players, each one with a great sound up to DHC and beyond. Ask player #1, "How in the world do you do that?" He replies, "Well I just do A,B, and C and out it comes". Ask player #2 the same question and he says, "Well, it's just a matter of doing D,E, and F". Both of them are viewing it from 2 different filters, each one applying methodology that the other one might find counter intuitive.....and they are BOTH correct..... |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| area51recording wrote: | | This is the thing that AMAZES me about the horn we play! Take two players, each one with a great sound up to DHC and beyond. Ask player #1, "How in the world do you do that?" He replies, "Well I just do A,B, and C and out it comes". Ask player #2 the same question and he says, "Well, it's just a matter of doing D,E, and F". Both of them are viewing it from 2 different filters, each one applying methodology that the other one might find counter intuitive.....and they are BOTH correct..... |
And we've reached the Blind Men Describing An Elephant parable.
https://youtu.be/IEzLfPwl5cg?t=14
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