The acoustic impedance of the resonant system (tubing) in conjunction with airflow and lip tension cause the lips to buzz when you bring the trumpet to the mouthpiece. It is not the same as free-buzzing, but the lips must open and close ("buzz") to play. There are plenty of ITG etc. articles that explain the physics.
I well understand the physics.
The issue here is that the opening and closing of the lips is not the same as the conventionally accepted definition of 'lip buzzing'.
It does not do well to confuse the two. That was my point. A little frustrating that all the self-proclaimed scientists want to jump forward to contradict me, when in fact we're all saying the same thing...
Writing about the physics (which, I will say again, I fully comprehend) but then throwing the word 'buzz' in, is where this problem stems from. The opening and closing of the lips at a rate of many hundreds of times a second (which we all fully agree is occurring) is NOT the same as the action of 'buzzing' the lips together.
Some of you are so quick to try and show off your (actually very basic) grasp of physics, you are prepared to correct an answer that was not given.
Semantics aside, the content of my post remains true. If everything is happening correctly at the aperture (call it "buzzing" or "vibrating" or "opening and closing rapidly" or whichever verb the various rain-men of the forum prefer as they count toothpicks), you don't need to move much air at all. It's just setting the lips into vibration...aka, a "buzz". If we want to discuss real physics, the vibration of the lips merely excites the air already in the horn; technically, the trumpet doesn't need any air flowing through it to be played. It just needs an atmosphere, which we obviously already have.
For a demonstration of this fact, visit this link that shows a Stomvi mouthpiece designed to be played such that no air can flow from the chops into the instrument itself:
My point: don't get hung up on how to "use your air". There's just no such thing. It comes in, and goes out. Many players use air as a crutch to compensate for an inefficient embouchure, so they tell each other the secret is always "more air!".
Ultimately, focus on finding and cementing great embouchure technique, because that's where trumpet players are made and destroyed. Get your chops working correctly, and you're 90% of the way there...and, you'll never think about air again.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 am Post subject:
drewwilkie86 wrote:
Semantics aside, the content of my post remains true. If everything is happening correctly at the aperture (call it "buzzing" or "vibrating" or "opening and closing rapidly" or whichever verb the various rain-men of the forum prefer as they count toothpicks), you don't need to move much air at all. It's just setting the lips into vibration...aka, a "buzz". If we want to discuss real physics, the vibration of the lips merely excites the air already in the horn; technically, the trumpet doesn't need any air flowing through it to be played. It just needs an atmosphere, which we obviously already have.
Exactly - Don (self-proclaimed scientist, should probably change my signature) _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
If we want to discuss real physics, the vibration of the lips merely excites the air already in the horn; technically, the trumpet doesn't need any air flowing through it to be played.
But that is NOT the real physics.
The standing wave is excited by the pulses of air on each cycle. Not the direct physical motion of the lips. Each pulse provides a flow of air, even if a relatively small amount, on each cycle.
Air flow into the instrument is ABSOLUTELY required.
You may indeed vent the average air flow before the bell (at the expense of acoustic integrity) but this does not negate the requirement of air flow INTO the instrument by the player
What physics "experts" usually fail to realize it the air power requirement to produce, at most, the same amount of sound power.
Air flow into the instrument is ABSOLUTELY required.
How much air is flowing into the instrument in the above video that drewwilkie86 shared? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
... Air pressure AND air flow are required.
------------------
I thought it was possible to make a 'mechanical lip' contraption that uses a small audio speaker to produce the necessary 'in horn' vibrations, and that wouldn't give actual 'air flow' - unless 'new air' is somehow being introduced into the system.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Well written gabriel127. Most just repeat what their heroes say. Air IS important for providing the energy flow to play. And that is all. ANYONE, banning a physical defect, has the air required to play any note.
I thought it was possible to make a 'mechanical lip' contraption that uses a small audio speaker to produce the necessary 'in horn' vibrations, and that wouldn't give actual 'air flow' - unless 'new air' is somehow being introduced into the system.
It is. But that is not how WE play. Our energy source is pressure at zero cycles. (Lung pressure).
But even an audio speaker would require air displacement for each cycle (or half-cycle). This would indeed have no accumulative flow over time, but there WOULD be an RMS flow. (I don't have time to explain RMS, root mean square, so look it up.) Also, the audio speaker would require a power amplifier that would provide enough power. For any tone, against the acoustic impedance of the instrument, this would be required to be COMPARABLE to the same power as the player would provide with flow x pressure.
You can not create sound power without a power source.
How much air is flowing into the instrument in the above video that drewwilkie86 shared?
The same amount that flows from the player.
The "instrument", as played, includes the mouthpiece.
Lol. That isn't what you meant and you know it.
He demonstrated that what's required to make the instrument work is a vibration through the existing air in the instrument, not airflow through the instrument. It just so happens that how a human player creates a vibration is with breath. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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I don't know about flame but definitely disagreed with.
You talk about Maynard doing a disservice, yes, but so are you with blanket statements like
Quote:
EVERYONE over the age of 7 years old who has no major physical handicaps has enough air power to play a nice big high G and a double high C
It's more than just squeaking out one or two notes. Have you ever met a 7 or 8 year old who can play G's and dub C's in a musically useful context - as in they can play a lead chart that makes those demands and really make it sizzle? I'm going to guess you haven't. If not, why are you making broad assertions like this?
Quote:
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE AIR
It isn't "all about" any one thing, it's about parts of the whole that have to come together. It's partly about the air. Varying speed of air, varying pressure and volume of air, control over making the air steady. It's also about the embouchure and aperture as part of which I'm including horn angle, teeth opening, oral cavity. It's also about equipment and the cooperativeness of one's physical tools. Maynard could play high because he had cooperative tissue. He had an unorthodox embouchure that happened to work for playing high notes. If someone had forced him to play with a conventional, centered placement you'd have never heard of him. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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That is EXACTLTY what I meant. THE instrument, THAT WE PLAY, includes the mouthpiece. The fact that a mouthpiece portion is detachable is purely practical and utilitarian.
Quote:
He demonstrated that what's required to make the instrument work is a vibration through the existing air in the instrument, not airflow through the instrument. It just so happens that how a human player creates a vibration is with breath.
Yes there is a vibration. A standing wave in the resonant instrument. To add energy to this wave, pressurized air MUST flow from the player into the mp cup on EACH vibrational cycle. This is a PULSED flow of air, not constant flow. (The air velocity also varies during the cycle). This flow FEELS steady because it is pulsing at a high enough frequency that ALL we "feel" is the average flow.
If you could get the lips to vibrate exactly the same way but there were no air flow on each cycle then there would be very little sound if any.
Blowing air into the resistance of the tone in the resonant instrument is how we apply power to the sound.
It also happens that allowing the net flow to travel through the instrument is acoustically the most ideal. Since the instrument tone DOES have a significant resistance, the flow is relatively gentle through the instrument.
YES, you CAN vent the DC flow from the mp cup an play a tone if there is a resistive port. But you can NOT play without air flow from the player. It is also obvious that a ported mouthpiece with a membrane that stops prevents flow into the MP throat is an acoustically inferior set-up.
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