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ChicagoSymmusicians authorize strike4March 10 ifno agreement


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alexwill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: ChicagoSymmusicians authorize strike4March 10 ifno agreement Reply with quote

https://www.wfmt.com/2019/02/14/chicago-symphony-orchestra-musicians-authorize-strike-for-march-10-over-new-contract/
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riccardo Muti to CSO management: 'I'm with the musicians'
In a letter delivered to management, Chicago Symphony Orchestra's music director urges them to settle the contract dispute this week.
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/arts-entertainment/riccardo-muti-cso-management-im-musicians
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update with letter from management...
http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2019/03/on-eve-of-cso-strike-management-makes-public-its-latest-contract-offer/
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?

Although emotionally we want our fellow musicians to be successful the truth is that we're all expendable. No one has a monopoly on proficiency. There are a lot of excellent musicians. Those are the realities of business and the Chicago Symphony is a business in addition to being an artistic institution. The musicians can drive their position only so far. Management has options.

Have you ever tried to raise money for an arts organization? My brother-in-law has a degree in arts management and was the marketing director for one of the largest opera companies and one of the largest symphonies in the United States. The job was so difficult and thankless that he ultimately changed careers.

I hope this all works out to everyone's satisfaction.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be a lot easier to get rid of the management than 100 musicians. If you think fine musicians are a dime a dozen, ( think again), imagine how many managers are out there. I'd be curious what qualifications the CSO management actually have?
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Athos
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember the NFL scab player experiment? How'd that work out?

Even if (and this is beyond highly questionable) the CSO were able to find 100 players who were as good (whatever that means) as the current musicians, the trademark sound (and all that it encompasses) of the CSO would be lost. Much of what makes a great orchestra great is that it is comprised of great musicians who play together for a long time.

I'll bet there would be scabs willing to come in and play as the "CSO," but there would be a profound qualitative difference. It would be obvious to anyone familiar with the orchestra.
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trumpetmandan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?

Although emotionally we want our fellow musicians to be successful the truth is that we're all expendable. No one has a monopoly on proficiency. There are a lot of excellent musicians. Those are the realities of business and the Chicago Symphony is a business in addition to being an artistic institution. The musicians can drive their position only so far. Management has options.


The idea that management could replace every musician in the orchestra at once and wind up with something that even remotely approaches the current quality of the CSO is laughable. You are correct to say " No one has a monopoly on proficiency". However, "proficiency" is not the standard in a group like the CSO. The musicians have more leverage than you think.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetmandan wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?

Although emotionally we want our fellow musicians to be successful the truth is that we're all expendable. No one has a monopoly on proficiency. There are a lot of excellent musicians. Those are the realities of business and the Chicago Symphony is a business in addition to being an artistic institution. The musicians can drive their position only so far. Management has options.


The idea that management could replace every musician in the orchestra at once and wind up with something that even remotely approaches the current quality of the CSO is laughable. You are correct to say " No one has a monopoly on proficiency". However, "proficiency" is not the standard in a group like the CSO. The musicians have more leverage than you think.


Your statement that the quality of a whole new CSO would not even remotely approach the quality of the current CSO is highly speculative. How many current members of the CSO can you name? How many current members of the CSO do you really know anything about in terms of their level of proficiency? What is the objective quantitative measurement of the quality of the current CSO? Do the people who give money care who the players are? Who would the new players be and what is their level of proficiency? What is the threshold of artistic quality necessary to maintain the funding of the CSO? Would an entirely new CSO meet that threshold?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. My point is simply that these are all considerations in terms of designing and maintaining a successful business model. There are a lot of artists in the music business who make a ton of money with mediocre talent. One of the primary objectives of the CSO is to avoid bankruptcy. An OK CSO that thrives is a better situation for the patrons, the musicians and the management than a great CSO that becomes extinct because the funding couldn't keep up with the costs.

I would suggest that in the case of an organization like the CSO the money comes in more as a result of civic pride and social acceptance than as a result of the quality of the ensemble. How many patrons are even qualified to judge the quality of the ensemble? How many patrons think critically about quality as long as it reaches a reasonable threshold? Again, I don't know the answers. These are just things that are available to be considered.

I'm all for the CSO to maintain it's current players and it's current level of quality. At the end of the day, however, these things are contingent on the money being there. If the money isn't there what do you suggest management do? It's easy to be critical when the losses aren't coming out of your own pocket.
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Athos
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt anyone associated with the CSO wants it to be "pretty good," when they've been marketing it and talking about it as "world's best."

It's well established that money flows in for organizations with high standards and expectations more than for those that aspire to avoid bankruptcy.

Ultimately, people want excellence and will pay for it. Once excellence isn't the goal, what exactly is the goal, and why would people give money for it? "You can't cut your way to prosperity."
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JenTrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would never happen with a result of ending up with a high caliber “new” CSO level group: I can’t imagine any reputable orchestral musician that would have the gall to step into a job, knowing that it was overstepping those that earned it, and after putting in years of a career that halted in a strike. Plus, no other big orchestra would then ever want to hire someone that would actually do that to other orchestral colleagues. The “new CSO” wouldn’t be too popular with any other musicians. Hence, why this is a far fetched and unreasonable idea.



HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?

Although emotionally we want our fellow musicians to be successful the truth is that we're all expendable. No one has a monopoly on proficiency. There are a lot of excellent musicians. Those are the realities of business and the Chicago Symphony is a business in addition to being an artistic institution. The musicians can drive their position only so far. Management has options.

Have you ever tried to raise money for an arts organization? My brother-in-law has a degree in arts management and was the marketing director for one of the largest opera companies and one of the largest symphonies in the United States. The job was so difficult and thankless that he ultimately changed careers.

I hope this all works out to everyone's satisfaction.
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MrClean
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?

Although emotionally we want our fellow musicians to be successful the truth is that we're all expendable. No one has a monopoly on proficiency. There are a lot of excellent musicians. Those are the realities of business and the Chicago Symphony is a business in addition to being an artistic institution. The musicians can drive their position only so far. Management has options.

Have you ever tried to raise money for an arts organization? My brother-in-law has a degree in arts management and was the marketing director for one of the largest opera companies and one of the largest symphonies in the United States. The job was so difficult and thankless that he ultimately changed careers.

I hope this all works out to everyone's satisfaction.


I'm sorry, but you are either naive or ignorant. I don't mean either as an insult, btw - not calling you stupid... While it is true that there are many, many very gifted and proficient musicians out there, the CSO is more than just a collection of excellent players. Individually they are among the best of the best, but more importantly, they play with a singularity that is rare even within the ranks of the most elite orchestras. It is a shared concept of sound, ensemble, balance and interpretation that drives this orchestra's tradition of excellence that started well before Herseth got there. This is something that took many decades to build, and it is reliant on a shared commitment to excellence and resistance to anything short of that. They police themselves and are not shy about letting someone who is not cutting it know it - it just isn't tolerated. This orchestra is famous for a reason - they are indeed special, and to think that something like this could just be reassembled, particularly under the management's current best offer, is well, either naive or ignorant. One need only look at the principal trumpet and horn vacancies, and the difficulty they have had filling those chairs. It's not just about someone that can play their instrument very well - they've got to be able to get inside of that tradition and uphold the sky high standard these guys set on a regular basis.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrClean wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?

Although emotionally we want our fellow musicians to be successful the truth is that we're all expendable. No one has a monopoly on proficiency. There are a lot of excellent musicians. Those are the realities of business and the Chicago Symphony is a business in addition to being an artistic institution. The musicians can drive their position only so far. Management has options.

Have you ever tried to raise money for an arts organization? My brother-in-law has a degree in arts management and was the marketing director for one of the largest opera companies and one of the largest symphonies in the United States. The job was so difficult and thankless that he ultimately changed careers.

I hope this all works out to everyone's satisfaction.


I'm sorry, but you are either naive or ignorant. I don't mean either as an insult, btw - not calling you stupid... While it is true that there are many, many very gifted and proficient musicians out there, the CSO is more than just a collection of excellent players. Individually they are among the best of the best, but more importantly, they play with a singularity that is rare even within the ranks of the most elite orchestras. It is a shared concept of sound, ensemble, balance and interpretation that drives this orchestra's tradition of excellence that started well before Herseth got there. This is something that took many decades to build, and it is reliant on a shared commitment to excellence and resistance to anything short of that. They police themselves and are not shy about letting someone who is not cutting it know it - it just isn't tolerated. This orchestra is famous for a reason - they are indeed special, and to think that something like this could just be reassembled, particularly under the management's current best offer, is well, either naive or ignorant. One need only look at the principal trumpet and horn vacancies, and the difficulty they have had filling those chairs. It's not just about someone that can play their instrument very well - they've got to be able to get inside of that tradition and uphold the sky high standard these guys set on a regular basis.


Sorry Jim but business is business. I didn't say it would be easy. I just said it could be done. The CSO can be reorganized at a level acceptable to the vast majority of the people who support it financially. So can any other symphony orchestra in the United States. You're a fool if you think it can't be done.
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MrClean
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you could certainly build an orchestra that plays well and is acceptable to many people for that money, but that’s not the point. If you want “good enough’ then so be it. That band’s MO has never involved mediocrity.

Even if this all unfolded in your fantasy world, it would be difficult to get players to show up for those auditions. I’ll tell you right now the quality of musicians willing to cross a picket line is going to be bad, and they can forget about working in any union orchestra ever again. The Chicago audiences will soon grow tired of the garbage coming off the stage and management would be forced to deal with the old players. The subs would be done. You are a fool if you believe otherwise. The music world is a small one, and we talk to each other...
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as someone who's employer, at age 47 (just as the pension vesting formula starts ramping up), decided to renege on the promised pension while simultaneously moving the retirement age down to 58 (after which they make your life Hell if you dont leave), I completely understand the musicians point of view. I know what it is like to have the "experts" the company generously provided tell me that all I have to do is "save responsibly" (an amount equal to my gross pay every year), I could make up for the lost pension. It is morally wrong to "change the deal" after someone has worked under an understanding of what is essentially deferred compensation for many years. A "frozen pension" does not rise to the percentage of pay it would at retirement age, and it does not even adjust for inflation - it essentially fades away.

Here's what scares me. The CSO musicians do make a healthy salary - more than most on both sides of the labor divide in "old industry" and at the lower end of "high tech" skilled labor. Pensions are essentially extinct in those arenas, and have never been around for most medical professionals, lawyers and similar moderate to high paid independent professionals. BUT, that's where the bulk of the money that keeps professional ensembles going comes from and I don't know that this is going to resonate with that audience. I am worried that the politics of this are not leaning in a favorable direction and that this could put one of the longest and finest traditions in music at risk.

The CSO musicians need to be more effective at communicating what I first laid out above, or they will not achieve the political momentum among the donor base necessary to achieve a favorable resolution.

It is no secret that there are indeed more highly skilled musicians than there are jobs for them. We have lost too many great ensembles to economic realities of modern American culture. That will lead many in the music management world to the false conclusion that the CSO could re-staff with scabs and simply change.

Doing so would destroy the CSO as many here have already pointed out.

On the other side, the market is shrinking, and the revenue stream with it. The recent tax law changes are decimating the smaller contributions that provide the bulk of funding for many symphonies, and this may be the tip of the iceberg for major orchestras in the United States. The money may not be there much longer.

This is a truly depressing development, and it seems in keeping with the times (other case in point: Kanstul)
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the CSO fires everyone and had auditions, who would audition?

Nobody in the union would audition.
Anybody in a music school that wants to be a musician for a living wouldn't show up. They could but, this would be the last job.

Who does that leave? People like me that have a day job and can play a little. Not even close to the level needed.

The orchestra would be famous as the band that used to be good.

On top of that, what about the other unions that run the hall? I don't think it could happen.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don't you think that if they open up all the chairs for auditions they'll have a gazillion applicants who will be happy to accept the current offer and out of those gazillion applicants they will be able to form a great orchestra?


NO
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trumpetmandan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
The CSO can be reorganized at a level acceptable to the vast majority of the people who support it financially. So can any other symphony orchestra in the United States. You're a fool if you think it can't be done.


It seems like your argument is predicated on the notion that patrons of the CSO (or any other orchestra) would not notice or care about a quality difference between the current group of musicians and a scab orchestra. The audience deserves more credit than that. It does not take a trained musician to discern the great from the mediocre.

As many others have stated, you're not going to get the cream of the crop to show up and audition for the dollar store brand CSO. You'll get some desperate students and some part-timers. Serious players will stay home.
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
The CSO can be reorganized at a level acceptable to the vast majority of the people who support it financially. So can any other symphony orchestra in the United States. You're a fool if you think it can't be done.


Send me to the room of fools.

Hup
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, a single ticket to the CSO is $158 plus. I can get a single top-row balcony ticket to my local regional orchestra for $24 (which is a GREAT place to sit and hear an excellent orchestra, btw). CSO with scrubs won't be worth $158 when you can go see the same, or lower, quality musicians for a sixth of the price.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
If the CSO fires everyone and had auditions, who would audition?

Nobody in the union would audition.
Anybody in a music school that wants to be a musician for a living wouldn't show up. They could but, this would be the last job.

Who does that leave? People like me that have a day job and can play a little. Not even close to the level needed.

The orchestra would be famous as the band that used to be good.

On top of that, what about the other unions that run the hall? I don't think it could happen.


I'm not advocating for the CSO to fire everyone and hold auditions. Like everyone else I'm hoping that an acceptable resolution will be reached and that the CSO will continue as a world class ensemble.

My point is that history is filled with extinct art organizations that could not afford their budgets. At the end of the day, from a business perspective, it's all about the money. Deficit spending may be a viable economic plan for government but in business deficit spending ultimately leads to a "necessity is the mother of invention" moment. In that situation something has to give whether people like it or not and the afflicted company has a lot of options including bankruptcy and reorganization. In bankruptcy and reorganization it's a whole new slate. Under those circumstances there are no "scabs." There's just a new orchestra and the new orchestra just continues onward.

To say that something is "impossible" is an invitation to be embarrassed later. Nothing motivates an entrepreneur spirit more than someone saying that something is "impossible." As President Obama so eloquently stated, "Yes We Can." It's true whether you supported President Obama or not.

As for the audience's ability to discern with objective accuracy the quality of a performance, I think experience shows that this ability is highly questionable.

How many performances (in all areas of the performing arts) have you attended that were, at best, just OK that got a standing ovation from the audience? We have a Lied Center here that books national and international acts on a regular basis. Some performances are outstanding. Some performances are mediocre. Some performances are awful. It doesn't seem to matter. EVERYTHING is well attended and EVERYTHING gets a standing ovation.

I have not intended to insult or incense anyone with my posts on this topic. These are all theoretical concepts. No one needs to get bent out of shape about a theoretical concept. My intent has been to expand the discussion to include the perspective of management and to suggest the wide range of remedies available to management. Whether those remedies would be successful does not negate the fact that such remedies are available.

Disclosure: I own three successful businesses and I'm the founder of an arts organization (jazz orchestra) that is currently celebrating its 43rd anniversary season. When I founded the organization a very influential person in the arts community who had observed me running a rehearsal wrote me a letter which said, among other things, "This band won't last 6 months and you have no tact!" Fortunately, he was only half correct.
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