Comeback player story...sharper, smaller rim?

[Surcouf]

Hello everyone!

I’ve been lurking for a few months and finally have what I hope is a valid question to ask here…apologies for the long ramble…and apologies in advance for ignorance on technical matters.

Background: I’m six weeks into my comeback 20 years after a modest playing career in high school. I’ve never been more than a rank amateur in skill level, probably never will be, and am fine with that. No delusions of grandeur here but playing is fun!

I dusted off my ’64 Olds Special and started playing again. I really love this horn, and am planning to have it fully restored this summer (and eventually get an original Olds mouthpiece for it, just to have one). The horn came with a 1960s vintage Bach 6 mouthpiece, which I used a bit in high school before switching to the ubiquitous 7C (which I bought new in the 1990s). I felt like I had a hard time “locking in” to the 6, the fat rim feels odd to me (and still does), and the 7C is what everyone played in high school so that’s what I started on again.

I have fuller lips, so after playing a few weeks I thought a larger rim diameter might be more comfortable. I tried a Bach 3C and a Blessing 1.5C. Both are OK, but neither really felt better than the 7C – in fact, going with a bigger rim diameter felt a little LESS comfortable.

So here’s where I had a surprise: my horn had a stuck tuning slide that weeks of patient application of penetrating oil failed to free, so it’s off to the shop for a couple weeks. In the meantime, I bought a ’65 Olds Ambassador cornet off eBay for $56. It’s cosmetically quite rough but plays fine (I think it was used for marching in a previous life). It came with another 60s’ vintage mouthpiece – a beat-up, ugly old Bach 7C that took a lot of cleaning before I dared to touch it to my face….

…but the odd thing is that this beat-up, 50 year-old cornet 7C mouthpiece is the most comfortable I’ve tried yet. The rim feels like it has more “bite” than all the other mouthpieces I’ve played on thus far and I feel like I can get a more comfortable “locked in” feel. I can just squeak out a high C with it, which is more than I can say for the other mouthpieces. This cornet 7C doesn’t feel the same (to ME) as the trumpet 7C – not a massive difference, but a clear difference all the same. Maybe I’m crazy.

I’m obviously not trying to get too technical here - just trying to find something that feels right. Given that I feel most comfortable (thus far) with this old 7C cornet mouthpiece, any suggestions on what I might try next for a similar - feeling trumpet mouthpiece that isn’t a 7C? Something with a smaller, sharper rim? What would that be?

I need to continue building endurance and probably do a lot of things wrong since I am playing on my own, and I know equipment won’t solve those issues. With that being said, I’m looking to see whether I should just stick to the “OK” 7C on the trumpet, or whether something else is more suitable.

And that Ambassador cornet has now gotten me curious about cornets…a new rabbit hole to get lost down!

[JayKosta]

The 'general thinking' is that Bach mouthpieces did change slightly in rim size & shape going thru various times and places of production. So even various Bach 7c trumpet mouthpieces can vary.
What is the exact stamping on the bowl of the cornet 7c that seems to fit you better, someone here can suggest whether the current batch of new Bach 7c would be similar, or tell you what to look for.

My old trumpet Bach 7 is from the late 50's and is marked 'VINCENT BACH CORP MT VERNON NY', a few years ago I bought a new Bach 7 which is marked 'VINCENT BACH 7' - to me, the rims feel identical.

You might try carefully examining the exact shape and curve of the rim on your mouthpieces. Looking especially for where the 'high spot' is in relation to the ID and OD. And how far and fast the rim surface falls from the high spot to the ID and OD. I think that has a lot to do with exactly where on your lips the mouthpiece exerts pressure, and the size of the area that receives the pressure.

If the trumpet Bach 7C doesn't cause any pain, and works decently well, then I'd (meaning ME) just continue to use it for at least another month of regular practice, and then reconsider whether it is still 'lacking'.

I don't fully trust the 'written descriptions' in the Bach sales material about the shape of the various rims ...

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Irving]

Note how everything is stamped on your cornet mpc. Is there a period after corp? Is the period close or far away from corp? There are pages that discuss this. Look for another 7C with the same stamping. This is no guarantee of anything though. But it's a start. 7C's are plentiful and cheap. Start looking. BTW I have 3 Mt. vernon 7C's. Each one is different

[Surcouf]

Good points.

My cornet Bach 7C mouthpiece (and my trumpet Bach 6) are both stamped "Vincent Bach Corp" with NO period after "Corp."

The trumpetjunkie website (https://www.trumpetjunkie.com/datingbachmouthpieces.htm) claims this dates those mouthpieces to between 1964-1969.

It hadn't occurred to me to find a trumpet 7C from the same era. Maybe that's worth a try.

[zaferis]

From what you've written, I'd suggest staying with the 7C.

AND IMO you'd be better served by buying a new mouthpiece (in this case a Bach 7C).. It may be slightly (very slightly) different in shape from a 60's - 70's version, BUT new and smooth with good silver is also important. I'd be pessimistic about finding an old 7C that was clean, and smooth - scratched, dinged, and with worn silver is not good.

Additionally, there is nothing wrong with a 7C.. if it's "comfortable" and you get a good sound (tone and articulation) then there is no reason to look for something different. Remember that there is no "beginner" trumpet mouthpiece.. 7C is mid-ground, middle of the road, a well balanced mouthpiece, and that's why they're often included with new beginner trumpets.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[Surcouf]

I do have a newish trumpet 7C (I mentioned that, but it is buried in my rambling original post), and does work pretty well - though the old cornet 7C I mentioned is even better.

I take your point about condition. There are so many 7Cs out there especially, it doesn't make sense to get a ratty one.

[mrhappy]

I always had a 7C but since I got back into it my research was telling me that I'd do better with something bigger, however, I recently bought a cornet and it came with a Bach 10-1/2 C and I LOVED it!! Now I'm planning on trying one on my trumpet too.
_________________
MH

[OldKing]

[Surcouf]

I'm playing purely for my own amusement...of course, I am hoping to get better through time - maybe get some lessons again, maybe even eventually join an amateur brass band. I'll leave the amazing jazz improvisations, virtuoso classical solos and screaming high lead band performances to the pros. I'll buy the albums

[shofarguy]

Surcouf,

Welcome to TH and best wishes for your comeback!

There are some options for you to pursue. You can look for a trumpet mouthpiece of similar vintage, but even with that the one you buy may not feel the same. The machining, buffing and polishing were all done by hand back then and so the results vary from piece to piece much more than CNC work today.

You could try a 7C mouthpiece made by Mark Curry. He has a collection of "Gold Standard" vintage Bach mouthpieces that he uses for his line of vintage-style rims. They are a little bigger in diameter than what is being produced today or in the past 30 years and the shapes of these rims are a bit different than modern pieces. It may be that you like one of his modern rims. The thing is, a mouthpiece maker like Mark, or Jim New (formerly of Kanstul fame) with a digital measuring tool can put any rim contour on any size rim with any cup depth and shape paired to any back-bore they have tooling for.

Jim New is famous for copying a customer's favorite rim and duplicating it onto whatever design is desired. Bob Reeves can do that, too.

I use Flip Oakes mouthpieces, made by Mark Curry, and love the #5 series rim. Having identical rims on every mouthpiece I use makes switching between styles and instruments very easy!

Btw, I bought a Bach 6C back in the middle 2000s and never could make it work for me, either. And I have fairly thin lips!
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Surcouf]

Thanks for the tips!

[JeffM729]

If you are looking for VINCENT BACH CORP (no period) 7C trumpet mouthpiece, there are several on eBay. Just search for early Elkhart as dealers use that term to designate the no period era. The pictures should show the condition and they aren't expensive.

[O00Joe]

I agree it would be prudent to find a new mouthpiece that is in current production that you like so finding a replacement or more isn't hard. I recommend Curry as an alternative "standard" mouthpiece line.

But I also seem to like the Vincent Bach Corp. era mouthpieces a lot. I always try to find one in the Bach sizes I like. It is also worth trying a Bach Artisan mouthpiece. They're based on original designs, have a lighter blank, and the rims are a little more rounded.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

[deleted_user_680e93b]

Why not just get a cornet to trumpet adapter and keep using the cornet piece you like. You can get one for less then the cost of a new mouthpiece and you may find you like the sound better than on a trumpet one piece mouthpiece.
You say your doing this for fun, and have no delusions of gandeur, so get one and see what happens, you might be pleasantly surprised ! It's been my experience that the mouthpiece that feels the best to me plays the best.

good luck,

tom

[JetJaguar]

You can get a brand new 7C with the CKB blank for $19.99 from Quinn on Ebay https://www.ebay.com/p/CKB-7c-Professional-Trumpet-Mouthpiece-QuinnTheEskimo/728906905

I'm playing one currently. They didn't take the world by storm, but there's nothing particularly wrong with them.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

[cheiden]

If you like the feel of a little bite you might enjoy the Bach 5C, or identically numbered Curry.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[LSOfanboy]

First of all; welcome!

Secondly, come on Trumpet herald!? A comeback player posts a long story asking for some advice and suddenly everyone jumps in to suggest their own PERSONAL favourite mouthpiece? Is that the best we can manage??

My advice would be that you focus on developing as a player before getting bogged down in the mire of equipment changes (you're already going between cornet and trumpet too soon for my liking). You really aren't at the stage to draw any tangible benefits from a different mouthpiece, and finding one 'more comfortable' than another actually doesn't matter much now anyway because its unlikely you play/practice for long enough for that to be significant factor anyway. If you feel that, at your current level, your mouthpiece is not 'comfortable' enough then this is almost certainly down to poor technique rather than a legitimate equipment-based issue.

If you are compelled to change mouthpiece to something more 'comfortable', then for goodness sake choose one and stick with it. Try a couple at a shop, or do some internet research, but then settle with whatever you buy and practice.

Unless you have some extraordinary dental issues, you'll be able to play on anything from a 7C (probably smaller to be honest) right up to a 1. So for now, I would advise you stop worrying about equipment (because I promise you won't gain any significant advantage using something else) and focus on developing your playing- especially if you can find a private teacher.

All the best

[Surcouf]

[Surcouf]

All too often these threads kind of peter out, so I thought I'd add a coda to wrap up this discussion.

Thanks to all who weighed in, it gave me plenty of food for thought. I am sure LSO fanboy is right that my technique is raw enough that practice is far more important than any equipment.

I finally got my '64 Olds Special back from the shop and all the slides are working freely so I can put down the battered Ambassador cornet and focus on one instrument. I've been playing 5-7 days a week for about 30 minutes to an hour per day and I am enjoying it very much. My tone is still airy, range and endurance weak, and my understanding of the craft of playing basic. But, as an amateur hobby player I'm not worried about it. Right now I am finishing up a PhD in Archaeology and thus have little time to spend on playing, but in the future I'd like to go back to taking lessons to work on the fundamentals.

After trying a number of mouthpieces (Bach 6, 3C, 7C, Blessing 1.5C, 5C, 10.5C), I have settled on the Blessing 10.5C. Despite my fuller lips, I feel more comfortable and do not tire as quickly with the smaller rim size and the 10.5C rim feels better than the Bach 6 rim.

Safari over. I bought a Blessing 10.5C and am sticking with it from now on. The fact that it cost half as much as a Bach mouthpiece was a nice bonus.

[mrhappy]