Bach C Chicago 25C leadpipe problem

[Tomektt]

Hello,

I play occasionally on Bach Chicago C trumpet with 25C leadpipe. The sound is fantastic but this instrument gives me a lot of resistance. The feeling is to tight and I experience a lot of back pressure. Do you think that 25H or 25S leadpipe could be a solution?

Regards
Tomek

[Jerry]

I'd adjust the mouthpiece before changing anything on the horn.

First enlarge the throat of the mouthpiece. If that doesn't help, get a bigger backbore.

[Tomektt]

I play on JK exclusive classic 4D, with 17,00 mm Cup diam. and 3,8 mm throat. It’s not the mouthpiece issue.

[chrisf3000]

I've started with a valve alignment on almost all of my horns. It doesn't take much! You'd be surprised how little a valve can be out of alignment before you feel turbulence and resistance in a trumpet. Not saying this is what you have, but its a place to start.

I've found that, while it helps, opening up a mouthpiece for me is a way to compensate for something that I feel in the horn. It's to always ideal and sometimes results in "fixing a problem with a problem". Start with making sure your valves are aligned and that there's no extra solder or gunk in the trumpet first. Let us know what you find out!

[Robert1]

In reply... I have a Bach Chicago C that I also felt was too restrictive. I loved the sound, however. So, I called Dr. Valve. He installed one of his leadpipes on this trumpet. Perfect job. It's not totally open, but it is considerable better, and with a slightly bigger, broader sound. The bonus was that I found that I can easily play the E's and Eb's with natural fingerings. I am very satisfied with the new pipe by Dr. Valve

[Brassnose]

It may still be the mouthpiece. I play on Klier USA MPs and find the Exclusive series fits very poorly with my Bach 43 - much more restrictive than the USA series.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[jengstrom]

I too have a Bach Chicago. It is a bit restrictive, as you say.

1. The old BrassReview site had several reviews that said the way to play this horn is to relax and let the horn do the work. I have found this to be somewhat true.
2. I bought a tuning slide from M/K Drawing that opened up the horn and made it more responsive. This is the way I usually play it.
3. You can replace the leadpipe. A prominent trumpet teacher I know told me (as diplomatically as he could) that my horn wasn't very good. He suggested I get a Yamaha NY. However, those are very expensive. He said if I wouldn't do that, I should at least put a Malone leadpipe on it. Well, you can't get those any more, but the next best thing is to get one from Ken Larson, who worked with Bob Malone for many years. I saw Ken a few months ago and tried out 4 leadpipes. I fell in love with one of them. The blow was very nice, and it flat out fixed the sharp high G and the very flat 4th line D. I should have left the horn with him then, but I wanted to think about it. Very dumb. This spring, when community orchestra season is over for the summer, I'm going to send the horn to Ken and have him put the leadpipe on it.

So your options are (moving from cheap to expensive):
1. Open up your mouthpiece (which you said you don't want to do).
2. Replace the tuning slide. This option is nice because it doesn't scar the horn and can be reversed easily.
3. Replace the leadpipe (which my require a new slide too).
4. Replace the horn.


John
_________________
Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc

[Brassnose]

Actually the same is true for my Eterna C large bore. USA series MPs are a much better fit than Exclusive series MPs. For me ...
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[James Becker]

[Daniel Barenboim]

[Speed]

Caveat: My experience is solely with Bb trumpets. I have never owned a C trumpet.

I am pretty obsessive about resistance, or lack of same. I do not like much resistance. My experience has been that a valve alignment, including a horizontal alignment, plus adjusting the gap, can make a truly significant impact on the resistance.

I have a Bach LB Commercial trumpet that already had a valve alignment from a well known shop when I bought it. For a supposedly open blowing horn, I found it to have more resistance than I wanted. I had a horizontal alignment done, and it made a huge difference. None of the valves were off much, but when you put all of them together, it made a difference.

Same with the gap. Reducing the gap has made enough of a difference that I decided not to get rid of a horn. On others, it's not made much difference.

Take care,
Marc Speed

Bach has a new line of Symphonic mouthpieces, which have larger backbores and throats than the standard line. I have one in 1.5C, with a 22 throat and a 24 backbore. I find that it gives a more open blow than the standard 1.5C or the Artisan 1.5C (which I also find more open than the standard 1.5C). Even if you're happy with your current mouthpiece, it may be useful to try out one of the Symphonic mouthpieces. It's cheaper than either getting a valve alignment or getting the gap changed.

[James Becker]

[James Becker]

I nearly forgot. One more solution for correcting too much or too little gap involves converting your mouthpiece for Reeves Sleeves. In most cases we can turn shanks with one day turnaround when mailed in or while you wait with a scheduled appointment. We stock the entire range of Reeves Sleeves including 1/4 sizes so players can dial in the gap that works best for them.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[Andy Del]

[rant]
The easiest solution is to get a different trumpet. I shudder at all the effort, time, money, frustrations, experiments, talk and general pollution caused by lacklustre performing Bach trumpets.

I own zero Bach trumpets and for this reason. My Kanstul, Schilke, Schagerl, Selmer, Galileo, Egger, Thein, Scherzer, Alexander etc. instruments don’t need different lead pipes, and endless modifications to work. Practice, yes, they need it. Or to put it better, I need.

If we were talking cars, most of the helpful modification advice would be very different and read along the lines of ‘trade in and get something that works’. [/rant]

Cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[John Mohan]

[James Becker]

[Brassnose]

I agree with John Mohan. 3.8 mm is not that much bigger. I have played a Klier USA 5C vs a Klier USA 5C 3.8 mm for quite some time and feel essentially no difference.

OP is from Poland so talking to Klier directly would probably the best solution. Klier is (1) almost in Poland ,(2) they speak English, and (3) are fast in responding. Plus they are open to many customizations.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Johnny-Highnote]

The Klier Exclusive Classic Mp is designed for Rotarys (and i guess it even has a 3,9 Bore size)...
Also Klier pieces have sometimes pretty fat shanks-resulting in even longer gaps
if You love tat Bach-i would test a Mouthpiece with 24-22 Bore,larger Backbore and maybe a slight V-cup.

Otherwise go buy a Yamaha.... most of them dont need any tweaking
_________________
Greatings from Germany
Dennis


38b "Frankenconn" with Bauerfeind Valve block/ Yamaha 6345G /Yamaha 631/Courtois 154G / Curry+Klier 1,5 mpc`s

[65strad]

I think that many will experience what they feel is an excessive resistance when playing a Bach Chicago C or Philly C, especially when they are experienced C players. While I feel valve alignments have been beneficial on my horns, I think the best solution for those that cant, or won't adapt to the "resistance" ( I prefer efficiency) that is purposely designed in these horns,it might be best to approach it from two different points of view

1.) Acclimation to its lead pipe design, ESPECIALLY for experienced players may be too much of a challenge to acclimate to the built in resistance. This horn can't be forced to comply with the blow of other C trumpets. For the pros that do play them, Chad Winkler, Pittsburgh Symphony and former principal of Pittsburgh, George Vosburgh, Billy Hunter, NY Met., they adapted and reaped the rewards. George Vosburgh especially, because he played one of the original Chicago C's in the CSO back in the day. George indicated that the new Chicago C's were similar blow, and sonically similar.

Roy Hempley and I had lunch about 11 years ago during a visit to Dillon Music to discuss my custom Bb and the current Bach Chicago C's. He indicated that George didn't want any modifications to his new Bach Chicago because he wanted what the design intended.


2.) Rather than replacing leadpipes and other similar "radical surgery", it may be more sensible and financially prudent to pick a different horn that suits your playing than attempting to make the horn something other than it was designed to be. Just my opinion. I think those new to C trumpet playing would find the transition from strictly Bb to C much easier if they started on the Chicago or Philly vs. extensive time on other "traditional" C trumpets.


Chad sometimes contributes here. He also plays a vintage NY Bach C. Maybe he can give his take as a legitimate professional. While Jim Becker's services have helped many, acceptance and embracing the potential that the design intended is a reward well worth the effort rather than radical surgery. Im glad to hear that Jim isn't into replacing the leadpipes on these horns. He know his stuff.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602

[Daniel Barenboim]