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Stradbrother Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Posts: 150
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:06 am Post subject: Switching between trumpet and flugelhorn mid-piece |
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Hello everyone
Just curious, does anyone have any techniques or advice for switching between trumpet and flugelhorn mid-piece?
I have plenty of experience with this, with a few solo works out there like Peaslee's Nightsongs involving switching back and forth, and of course the many many works for band and a few for orchestra that involve switching to Flugelhorn for a movement or solo...
But I want to really fine-tune this skill.
Currently I play a Schilke 15 on my Bb horn, and a UMI (CKB) 3C for my flugelhorn.
While flugelhorn obviously gets an extremely characteristic sound from a deep V-cup like I have in the UMI mouthpiece, would switching to a less-intense V cup or maybe even a C-type cup help with this transition?
Give me your thoughts and any experience you may have had that really worked for you.
Thank you so much! |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Switching between trumpet and flugelhorn mid-piece |
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Stradbrother wrote: |
... But I want to really fine-tune this skill. ...
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Is there something in particular that you want to improve?
MY experience with fellow amateurs playing flugel in ensembles is intonation difficulty (I don't flugel). When making mpc selection, I suggest having consistent good intonation with both the trpt and flugel as a priority.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I just make sure I have the same rim on both my trumpet and flugel mouthpieces. That way there is no difficulty switching, no matter how different the cup depth is.
When I play a Curry 3C. on trumpet, I play a Curry 3FLD. on flugel.
When I play a Reeves 43C on trumpet, I play a Reeves 43HF on flugel.
Etc, etc.
(Same goes for C trumpet, Picc, etc. Same rim across everything so switching is seamless.) _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2319 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I'll agree that having the same rim helps, but there are players that switch easily.
First of all practice what you perform. In your practice sessions, occassionaly pick up your Flugel and play part of the etude/solo/exercise that you're working on. Get yourself comfortable and "chop" knowledgeable about the move.
Practice on your Flugel - allow your body to learn what the difference is.
Then tuning.. know that when you pick up that other instrument (Flugel in this case) that it has been sitting at room temp. So, in prep, tune it accordingly, knowing that if you then play a long passage and the instrument warms, you may have to adjust mid tune. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Stradbrother Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Posts: 150
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: |
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I feel like my biggest issue is range accuracy.
My pitch isn't too bad, but when I have to play above the staff on flugelhorn (like in Nightsongs, for example), the upper range doesn't speak like it does on trumpet, obviously, and I feel like I have a hard time compensating for that when I switch back and forth. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2652 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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No tricks, just practice more. I switch between cornet, french horn and flugel. The mouthpiece rims are all different. For me the hardest part is the fingering changes but that's just a factor of the same thing, practicing making the switch and playing them all frequently. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | No tricks, just practice more. I switch between cornet, french horn and flugel. The mouthpiece rims are all different. For me the hardest part is the fingering changes but that's just a factor of the same thing, practicing making the switch and playing them all frequently. | What fingering changes? _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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Stradbrother Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Posts: 150
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:37 am Post subject: |
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I feel like in my practicing, I just end up with inconsistent results.
I feel like I am going to try to match my mouthpieces a little bit more in the rim, and maybe find a flugelhorn mouthpiece with less V, and I'll see how that goes.
After years of switching back and forth mid-piece, and practicing hours a day as a profession, I feel like it's worth checking out equipment at this point at least a bit. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2652 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:12 am Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | Richard III wrote: | No tricks, just practice more. I switch between cornet, french horn and flugel. The mouthpiece rims are all different. For me the hardest part is the fingering changes but that's just a factor of the same thing, practicing making the switch and playing them all frequently. | What fingering changes? |
Trumpet to Double French Horn. I used to think in trumpet and after playing both regularly, I just think in the one I'm playing. Unless tired and sometimes I forget. Aging sucks. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2652 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I watched a brass band concert last summer where the soprano cornet player stood up and played a trumpet solo. Then he went back to the soprano. Yikes. Talk about way different instruments. He sounded great. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Switching between trumpet and flugelhorn mid-piece |
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Stradbrother wrote: |
Just curious, does anyone have any techniques or advice for switching between trumpet and flugelhorn mid-piece?
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Yes... put one horn down then pick the other one up!
Stradbrother wrote: |
would switching to a less-intense V cup or maybe even a C-type cup help with this transition?
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I think that would help if you're have a problem adjusting. _________________ MH |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Same rim for all my horn .
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Technique? Yes - put down one horn, pick up the other. Make sure you've spent enough time on each horn that playing it is comfortable. Hope the horn is warm. (Someone really needs to develop a horn stand that keeps your horn warm). Play. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I also prefer using the same rim for both trumpet and flugelhorn. Makes switching back and forth easier and more consistent for me. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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dershem wrote: | (Someone really needs to develop a horn stand that keeps your horn warm). |
Nice idea! "Hey Maynard, got an extra cord?... I need to plug my stand in and forgot mine!" .... "No problem Miles, here ya go." _________________ MH |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2047 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't this why we all carry power banks with us these days? Just in case you forget the cord?
On a more serious note, using the same diameter has also improved things for me - my Klier USA 5C and GR 65FL both have a 16.5 mm diameter (though not the same rim, doesn't matter so much to me).
I have also been very happy with my rather new Rieger & Gräf 3C made from walnut wood. Does not cool off and is nice to play even if you pick up the instrument cold. Works really nicely with my Eterna C, too. They also make flugel pieces, but you would need to check the shank, of course. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 724 Location: SE US
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Turkle wrote: | I just make sure I have the same rim on both my trumpet and flugel mouthpieces. That way there is no difficulty switching, no matter how different the cup depth is.
When I play a Curry 3C. on trumpet, I play a Curry 3FLD. on flugel.
When I play a Reeves 43C on trumpet, I play a Reeves 43HF on flugel.
Etc, etc.
(Same goes for C trumpet, Picc, etc. Same rim across everything so switching is seamless.) |
I play the same rim on all of my horns and in all situations. The bottoms are all different depending on horn, musical requirement, and style. I practice on all of them a lot too (horn and mouthpiece combinations), and I think therein lies the key, at least for me. When I have a specific horn or multiple horn requirement gig on the horizon, I practice those horns and moving back and forth a lot using as much prep time as can I get. The changeover is basically seemless other than temp changes in the move. _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Hi
I definitely think that using the same rim aids switching.
You say:
My pitch isn't too bad, but when I have to play above the staff on flugelhorn (like in Nightsongs, for example), the upper range doesn't speak like it does on trumpet, obviously, and I feel like I have a hard time compensating for that when I switch back and forth.
My gut feeling is that you are concentrating too much on the differences between trumpet and flugel horn. I'm not sure how much you play flugel or how familiar you are with the playing characteristics of your particular flugel, but presuming that you have a good approach to flugel and know the playing characteristics and intonation quirks of your flugel well, when you switch midpiece, rather than concentrating on how your flugel differs from your trumpet, I would just adopt the mindset of I'm playing flugel now, and would approach flugel in all regards like I was playing only flugel for the whole session.
In addition to switching between trumpet and flugel mid piece, I also have to play some numbers on cornet in my community light orchestra. I don't have to switch mid piece, but have to suddenly play a piece on cornet in the middle of a concert programme. I cope with the switch, because I'm equally familiar with cornet and trumpet, and just use my trumpet approach for trumpet and cornet approach for cornet.
I hope that this will be of some help.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 724 Location: SE US
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: |
I cope with the switch, because I'm equally familiar with cornet and trumpet, and just use my trumpet approach for trumpet and cornet approach for cornet.
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Exactly! Every instrument has a set of characteristics that is unique to varying degrees, at least in my personal experience. The more thoroughly you know the individual approach to each of your specific instruments, the easier the transition and pleasing your experience will be. Lots of practice time on each setup is the only way that I know of to gain the desired familiarity.
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Stradbrother Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Posts: 150
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
I definitely think that using the same rim aids switching.
You say:
My pitch isn't too bad, but when I have to play above the staff on flugelhorn (like in Nightsongs, for example), the upper range doesn't speak like it does on trumpet, obviously, and I feel like I have a hard time compensating for that when I switch back and forth.
My gut feeling is that you are concentrating too much on the differences between trumpet and flugel horn. I'm not sure how much you play flugel or how familiar you are with the playing characteristics of your particular flugel, but presuming that you have a good approach to flugel and know the playing characteristics and intonation quirks of your flugel well, when you switch midpiece, rather than concentrating on how your flugel differs from your trumpet, I would just adopt the mindset of I'm playing flugel now, and would approach flugel in all regards like I was playing only flugel for the whole session.
In addition to switching between trumpet and flugel mid piece, I also have to play some numbers on cornet in my community light orchestra. I don't have to switch mid piece, but have to suddenly play a piece on cornet in the middle of a concert programme. I cope with the switch, because I'm equally familiar with cornet and trumpet, and just use my trumpet approach for trumpet and cornet approach for cornet.
I hope that this will be of some help.
All the best
Lou |
I really dig that mindset.
Also - another thing that I might be overthinking/not thinking about, I also play on a Bach 183 flugelhorn with a small bore. My trumpet however, is a large bore.
I do think that when I go into the higher range, I might need to realize I'm playing higher on a smaller bore instrument, instead of my trumpet than can handle more air when it comes to the high range. |
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