Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2156 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:56 pm Post subject:
I've done both in the near forty years I've owned a flugelhorn, but I prefer having the same rim on both horns, especially if I'm switching back and forth. I did Nightsongs on a recital once and it would have been more trouble than it already was if I hadn't had the same rim on both horns.
Some people are more rim-sensitive than others--you can use different rims successfully as long as you give both instruments an equal amount of practice, in my opinion. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:17 am Post subject:
Stradbrother wrote:
Hi Stradbrother
I really dig that mindset.
I'm glad that my post has been of some use.
Also - another thing that I might be overthinking/not thinking about, I also play on a Bach 183 flugelhorn with a small bore. My trumpet however, is a large bore.
My flugel is also a Bach 183. Admittedly my trumpet is a ML rather than L bore, but I honestly do not think that the very small difference in bore size specs is worth worrying about. Taking flugel out of the equation for a moment, unless you are comparing the ML and L bore models of an otherwise equivalent trumpet, same bell, same leadpipe etc. to list just a few attributes that can contribute to a difference in blow resistance, bore size is not a very useful indicator in my opinion, of how open a trumpet may play. A L bore of one make/model may play with more resistance than a ML bore of another make/model.
Adding flugel back in to the equation, in my honest opinion, the difference in playing characteristics between trumpet and flugel, and the unique approach required for each, will more than cancel out any difference in bore size between your Bach 183 flugel and L bore trumpet.
I do think that when I go into the higher range, I might need to realize I'm playing higher on a smaller bore instrument, instead of my trumpet than can handle more air when it comes to the high range.
I honestly really wouldn't think of it in this way. Obviously one is a trumpet and one is a flugel, you are playing one with a trumpet mouthpiece and one with a flugel mouthpiece, which presumably has a lot deeper cup, larger throat and probably more open backbore than your trumpet mouthpiece. I've never even thought about how much air my flugel requires in the upper register compared to my trumpet. Like I said previously, I'd honestly just make sure that you really know how your flugel plays in the upper register, so that you are instantly familiar with it when you switch.
I honestly don't think that comparisons are wise. My husband runs a jazz band, and I play trumpet, flugel and flute in it. I often switch between trumpet and flugel in the same tune, and depending on the tunes, switch instrument accordingly. Last week, after three tunes, I had already played flute trumpet and flugel.
In my symphony orchestra, I double Bb and C trumpets. I rarely practise C trumpet, and until last Monday, had not played my C trumpet at all since our last concert mid December, as I was going to play all the pieces for our upcoming concert on Bb trumpet. There has been a change of programme, and I now need C trumpet for just one piece (well rather than need have opted to play it on C, as I've always played this piece on C). This piece comes in on a F at the top of the stave at a p dynamic, after quite a few bars rest. Whilst counting the rests, I thought to myself lol that it wasn't very wise to have not even warmed up on C trumpet (I had only tuned up on Bb (I did have the hindsight to re-oil and re-grease my trumpet). Anyway, I know my C trumpet well (and the piece I was playing), even if I was stupid enough to have not played it at all since mid December and came in on a quiet top line F just fine. I'm not suggesting this approach, as it is obviously unwise, but instead I'm using it as an example of how switching can be no problem if you know your individual horns well enough. I'm only an amateur player, so if I can do it, I imagine any competent player could.
Re-reading my last paragraph, I'm firstly sorry for all the extra parts in brackets, which were to hopefully prevent people querying my reasoning for what I said, and secondly, re-reading what I had put high-lighted something else. You not only in my opinion need to know all your instruments, but it doesn't hurt to be familiar with what you are playing on the relevant instrument. I switch between trumpet and flugel a lot, and often I'm sight-reading, so it isn't that big of a deal, but I think that my success with playing my top line F quietly on my C trumpet was helped by me having played this piece on C trumpet for the December concert. I'd therefore suggest practising the relevant bars on the relevant instrument, whether or not you practise the actual switching between the two (which I don't think is necessary if you know each well enough). A high passage on flugel is going to feel strange, if, and I'm not suggesting that you would do this, you have previously practised it at home on trumpet, to avoid getting both instruments out.
I'm really sorry to have been so wordy. I really hope that this will help.
Best wishes
Lou
P.S. Probably owing to me being so wordy, I've had this post on the go since yesterday, adding to it when I had a moment, so I apologise if I am doubling up on something someone has posted since I started my post.
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:20 am Post subject:
TrentAustin wrote:
I have a mini-lesson coming out tomorrow on YT about this exact topic (recorded it a few weeks ago but it's set to launch tomorrow).
-T
Hi again Stradbrother
I'd definitely recommend checking this out. As I said, I'm only an amateur player. I think that I am a good competent switcher between instruments, but I am not a player with anywhere near the overall ability of Trent Austin.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
I feel like I just had a hard time adjusting to the "blow" of the horn mid-piece. When you switch horns with a break in between pieces (and maybe even another tuning note ala. Hallelujah chorus), it's easy to feel good.
Just going to work on getting used to the blow of the instrument right away, instead of trying to adjust after the fact.
While using the same diameter mpc may be helpful nothing can be more helpful than being really familiar with both horns and actually shifting back and forth between them. Right now I'm preparing for Easter and the same diameter mpc isn't an option. I'm playing a flugelhorn and a bass trombone. Big change from DW3b on the Flug to a Bach 1 1/2 on the bass bone. I keep both horns out and constantly go from one to the other. _________________ Dave
She wails on trombone, too. A prime example of someone who doesn't overthink everything and just does it. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
I liked Trent's video. I like the idea of using the same rim for both trumpet and flugelhorn.
Since 2009, I have known Flip Oakes and have played his instruments. When that started, I began to understand another layer of design that helps with this issue and that is that having instruments that are developed by one player/designer makes doubling on various types of instruments easier.
Brass tacks: Flip also developed a line of mouthpieces to use with his instruments. So, if I use them, the technique I learn for flugelhorn is more closely related to the techniques I use for trumpet or cornet. That is not to say that I play flugelhorn like I would play a trumpet, but rather that when I play my Flip Oakes flugelhorn properly, it integrates well with how I play my Flip Oakes trumpet. There may be other lines of instruments that have that same integration, but I am most familiar with Wild Thing horns.
What I can tell you is that my first flugelhorn was a stock Kanstul 1025 and I used the FB mouthpiece that came with it, in the beginning. My trumpet at the time was a vintage Benge 5X and I used a Kanstul CG3 mouthpiece. The trumpet had a free feel to it. The flugelhorn felt as though I had to hold in 70% of my air all the time in order to get it to play properly. My two horns could not have made doubling harder on me.
I started experimenting with more open-bore flugelhorn mouthpieces about the time I met Flip. I had already switched to a French taper tuning bit. When I saw what Flip played on his flugelhorn, I was shocked at how large the throat was! He had hand-made what looked like an overgrown French horn mouthpiece with a 1/4" throat bore. This eventually was developed into his Extreme Flugelhorn mouthpiece, which I use today.
The point is that this mouthpiece not only gives a terrific sound, but makes the flugelhorn respond to a more normal flow of air. That "holding in" feeling is no longer a part of the experience.
Playing this type of flugelhorn setup has also brought my trumpet playing closer to a flugelhorn type of air column for most playing. Of course, my trumpet can get way nastier, if I want it to gas it up! _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Brian touches on something not mentioned so far and that is it can help to get the resistance between horns in a similar ball park to make switching easier. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL
Don't have a specific suggestion beyond what others have said but if it makes you feel better, there's a video on Youtube of Derek Watkins featured on MacArthur Park with the James Last orchestra. He starts out on flugel and does some of the most lyrical flugel work I've ever heard.
When he switches to trumpet for the fiery 2nd half it's obvious the cylinders aren't all firing up to his normal standard. Derek had a strong over dub C range, had many years of experience, renowned as a superb soloist, power player and studio player and even he could be tripped up by it. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2156 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:00 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
Don't have a specific suggestion beyond what others have said but if it makes you feel better, there's a video on Youtube of Derek Watkins featured on MacArthur Park with the James Last orchestra. He starts out on flugel and does some of the most lyrical flugel work I've ever heard.
When he switches to trumpet for the fiery 2nd half it's obvious the cylinders aren't all firing up to his normal standard. Derek had a strong over dub C range, had many years of experience, renowned as a superb soloist, power player and studio player and even he could be tripped up by it.
If this is the video you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOKZ5zSDaAA everything seems fine and he wails except at the end, when he airballs the first attempt on the double C, but then gets a good breath and horses it out. That was the only real glitch I could hear. I don't think the flugel was the culprit as much as it was just a really demanding trumpet solo. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
When he switches to trumpet for the fiery 2nd half it's obvious the cylinders aren't all firing up to his normal standard. Derek had a strong over dub C range, had many years of experience, renowned as a superb soloist, power player and studio player and even he could be tripped up by it.
If this is the video you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOKZ5zSDaAA everything seems fine and he wails except at the end, when he airballs the first attempt on the double C, but then gets a good breath and horses it out. That was the only real glitch I could hear. I don't think the flugel was the culprit as much as it was just a really demanding trumpet solo.
Certainly you or I would be ecstatic to be able to do as well as Derek does in that video but by Derek's standards he's definitely a bit off his game - various chips, misses and brittleness are in evidence.
Listen to this studio version of the same chart where he's on a different plane. Cleaner, stronger, nary a chipped note. I don't know if he got to take a breather before doing the trumpet part (or did the trumpet part first) or if he was just in the groove better.
Joined: 30 Apr 2019 Posts: 7 Location: Costa Blanca, Spain
Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:34 am Post subject:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi
I definitely think that using the same rim aids switching.
You say:
My pitch isn't too bad, but when I have to play above the staff on flugelhorn (like in Nightsongs, for example), the upper range doesn't speak like it does on trumpet, obviously, and I feel like I have a hard time compensating for that when I switch back and forth.
My gut feeling is that you are concentrating too much on the differences between trumpet and flugel horn. I'm not sure how much you play flugel or how familiar you are with the playing characteristics of your particular flugel, but presuming that you have a good approach to flugel and know the playing characteristics and intonation quirks of your flugel well, when you switch midpiece, rather than concentrating on how your flugel differs from your trumpet, I would just adopt the mindset of I'm playing flugel now, and would approach flugel in all regards like I was playing only flugel for the whole session.
In addition to switching between trumpet and flugel mid piece, I also have to play some numbers on cornet in my community light orchestra. I don't have to switch mid piece, but have to suddenly play a piece on cornet in the middle of a concert programme. I cope with the switch, because I'm equally familiar with cornet and trumpet, and just use my trumpet approach for trumpet and cornet approach for cornet.
I hope that this will be of some help.
All the best
Lou
I agree about the mindset bit. It's so important to remember that it's a completely different instrument, particularly if you are swapping frequently. And the upper notes can be very treacherous on my Olds flugel (which is not a pro model) so I always run through those notes on the morning of the gig or the night before.
Sometime other musicians ask me to bring three horns to a gig, or maybe even a keyboard and two horns to a gig. But it's too much to focus on and pack up. So I always say "No, you've gotta pick one or two", or I say "Let me pick the right ones for the gig." Indeed, if there's too much to worry about I can't relax and play my best. So I tend to bring the flugel too, but only on every second trumpet gig, and that way people respect its difference more.
I was very surprised to be told by a jazz trumpeter that he often plays all flugel in Spain becaues of the sound engineers. I thought that was strange. Recently my trumpet sounded incredibly bad on a live recording in France. Then I heard my flugelhorn on the same gig recordings. Much nicer, but strange too. Sounded too much like a trumpet! Then the penny dropped. Bloody amateur sound engineers! My carefully formed sound (and accompanying mindset) on each instrument had been edited out or lost through an inappropriate or missplaced mic. To be fair to engineers, I must say that more things can go wrong when amplifying or recording a trumpet. Supposedly it's one of the very hardest instruments to record well, but that's another subject. _________________ Brass musician & pianist. Main horns: Bach Strad ML37 tpt with 3c & Yamaha long model cornet with 3c. Fun horns: 1926 Conn Victor with A-change system & 1926 King tenor/baritone horn, forward-facing. Tubas: Eb Besson & Eb Hawkes.
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 269 Location: Australia
Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:50 pm Post subject:
Louise Finch wrote:
My gut feeling is that you are concentrating too much on the differences between trumpet and flugel horn. I'm not sure how much you play flugel or how familiar you are with the playing characteristics of your particular flugel, but presuming that you have a good approach to flugel and know the playing characteristics and intonation quirks of your flugel well, when you switch midpiece, rather than concentrating on how your flugel differs from your trumpet, I would just adopt the mindset of I'm playing flugel now, and would approach flugel in all regards like I was playing only flugel for the whole session.
I agree with this with a caveat (I approach this with less mindset and more physiological approach).
With flugelhorn (generally), you are blowing a smaller bore instrument with a deeper mouthpiece and blowing straight into the valve section (which, unless your main horn is a rotary trumpet, probably isn't the case with your trumpet).
Rather than acknowledging the change conceptually (which is important, if it works for you), consider what (if any ) physiological changes you have to make to play flugelhorn. I would suggest that this is pretty much identical, but maybe you want to be more aware of the points of resistance and approach to sound.
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:42 am Post subject:
I also like to think about the air differently.
This is a gross oversimplification, but I play the trumpet like I'm blowing out a candle, while I play the flugel like I'm warming my hands in the winter. It's a different kind of air.
But, I find that as long as I'm playing the same rim on both, then the notes "feel like they're in the same place" on both instruments. They just have different requirements re: air.
I personally have no problem switching from trumpet to flugel. But when I switch back to trumpet after playing flugel, particularly if I'm going to be playing high, then I sometimes have to remind myself to play with faster air right away!
Again, the above is very oversimplified, but it's how I think about it. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 7:40 am Post subject:
Turkle wrote:
I also like to think about the air differently.
This is a gross oversimplification, but I play the trumpet like I'm blowing out a candle, while I play the flugel like I'm warming my hands in the winter. It's a different kind of air.
But, I find that as long as I'm playing the same rim on both, then the notes "feel like they're in the same place" on both instruments. They just have different requirements re: air.
I personally have no problem switching from trumpet to flugel. But when I switch back to trumpet after playing flugel, particularly if I'm going to be playing high, then I sometimes have to remind myself to play with faster air right away!
Again, the above is very oversimplified, but it's how I think about it.
That's the advantage to doubling - every horn you add to your quiver teaches you something new. The "warming your hands" airflow is even more pronounced on tuba, for example - On trumpet especially picc) you focus the air. on flugel (and tuba) you make the air vibrate. But the more time you put on each horn, the more automatic the change in mind-set and technique becomes. The trick here (having the same rim is a help, but really not as key as some might make it) is *face time* - spending time with the horn in your face so that when you pick it up, you know what to do. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
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