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Hi-Note76
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 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:33 am Post subject: Any Current Horns Sound Close to a Pre-War Besson Brevete? |
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With ITG coming up, I'm looking forward to going to the exhibitor booths to try out a bunch of different horns without dealing with the time, aggravation, and expense of trialing horns through the mail.
I already have a horn that's good for commercial and lead playing. Problem is, when I get other kinds of gigs when I don't want that bright a sound, I want a horn with that beautiful buttery sound that can play pretty. That's what I'm in the market for. Not overly dark and dank, but buttery.
One thing that I noticed about a pre-war Besson Brevete (owned by a friend) is that it has a beautiful sound in the low register and when I went above high C, the blow seemed to just open up and the horn spoke very nicely up there. The horn I'm referring to had an upside-down 3rd-valve slide, I don't know what years they made them that way. I would love to have a horn that sounds like this one.
I've been looking online to find (good) used Brevetes from that era, but haven't had any luck yet. I'm not inclined to buy a horn that has patches and such.
So I'm wondering if there is anyone out there who really knows horns who can recommend a modern horn that might come close to the Besson Brevete in sound to help me with a game plan on what horns to try at ITG.
To prevent some of you from wasting your time on responses that I will ignore, please don't mention boutique horns that go into the many thousands, I'm not in that market. And please don't mention Callet horns, Callet horns and I haven't historically gotten along very well. Nothin' against them, I've just never played one on which I could get the results that I wanted.
I'm wondering if any of you know of any particular models within the Bach, Yamaha, Calicchio, CarolBrass, Shires, Kanstul, Schilke, or other product lines that I haven't mentioned that might best fit what I'm looking for. I know that most modern horns have more zinc content in the brass than what these old Bessons had, thus making it impossible to truly match the sound of the old Bessons, but I'd like to get as close as possible.
These days, I don't like to get much larger than a .459 bore, but I will play something that might be larger, but feels smaller. Thanks in advance. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:21 am Post subject: |
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The "Paris" line from Kanstul was going to include what you are probably looking for. Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that will come to pass now.
I have had the experience of putting a pre-war Besson Brevet up against the original Kanstul Besson side by side, and neither I nor the considerably skilled owner of the Kanstul could tell them apart. These are still out there in the used market, so that may be an opportunity.
A word of caution though: there was some variation in Besson bells over the years. Byron Autrey and Renold Schilke did a characterization study on these bells - apparently they had found someone who could tell them what brass and annealing strategy had been used based on the thickness, model and decade a bell came from - and found some differences that could be tied to the recipe followed. No doubt that project (I believe undertaken for the benefit of Benge) ultimately found its way to Kanstul (Byron was heavily involved there for many years, including on the 1000 series, Destino and X), with the "standard" bell recipe clearly having been copied to produce such a convincing result. BUT, if the particular Besson you are wishing to match happens to not be "standard" from that over half-century period that these horns were largely unchanged, or if it has been modified, the result might not be as you hope.
Of similar characteristics (though we all perceive these things differently) may be Kanstul Chicago series (1000, 1001) or the Burbank trumpets (which were built by Kanstul), or of course actual Benges (non-KMI). The Kanstuls mentioned are all Benge derived, and Benge stated a goal early on of making a better, but still faithful to the original performing characteristics, Besson.
[and Besson built that design from 1880 (or slightly before) until shortly after the German occupation of Paris]
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www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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Richard III
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tptjazzboy28
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:56 am Post subject: |
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I would suggest you check out the Shires CVP (vintage Paris) horns. While I have only played one of their earlier prototypes a few years ago, I remember thinking it was an awesome horn. Plus it’s available in a few different bore sizes that you could check out.
I would also strongly recommend looking into the Adams line. I am a bit biased as I used to work for Trent at Austin Custom Brass where I had a chance to play close to 100 Adams horns. Their line offers many different models, with their own feel and sound. Super horns!
Good luck on the hunt!
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Hi-Note76
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I saw that listing and have concerns about it. This is not the first time that that horn has been listed by the same vendor. I inquired about it right before the listing expired. The seller replied that the horn had sold, so my question became moot. Now here it is, several weeks later and the horn is listed once again. So, I have some concerns about the seller's credibility/trustworthiness.
If I want to give the seller the benefit of the doubt and assume that he might have been telling the truth about it being sold, well, now it's listed again by the same seller, which then leads to the conclusion that the buyer bought it, didn't like it, and has returned it. So if that's the case, then I don't want to take the risk of having to try it out and send it back. I'm tired of paying postage for trial horns.
The question that I had about the horn before the sale was about the 3rd valve slide. That of the horn that I tried and liked so much was upside-down. This one is right-side-up. So my question is, when was this horn manufactured in comparison to the one that I liked with the upside-down slide? Was it made later, or earlier? And if it was made later, is it going to be as good as the earlier one?
I don't know anything about the history of these horns, when the manufacturer did what to them and which ones are better than others. All I know is that the one I tried was with the upside-down 3rd valve slide, and I loved the horn. I want one that plays and sounds like it. That's why I'm consulting on this board, because I know there have got to be some experts or Besson loyalists out there somewhere who can educate me.
I realize that I may never find the Besson Brevete that I'm looking for. That's why I'm open to something new that will get me as close as I'm going to get. |
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Hi-Note76
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The "Paris" line from Kanstul was going to include what you are probably looking for. Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that will come to pass now.
I have had the experience of putting a pre-war Besson Brevet up against the original Kanstul Besson side by side, and neither I nor the considerably skilled owner of the Kanstul could tell them apart. These are still out there in the used market, so that may be an opportunity.
A word of caution though: there was some variation in Besson bells over the years. Byron Autrey and Renold Schilke did a characterization study on these bells - apparently they had found someone who could tell them what brass and annealing strategy had been used based on the thickness, model and decade a bell came from - and found some differences that could be tied to the recipe followed. No doubt that project (I believe undertaken for the benefit of Benge) ultimately found its way to Kanstul (Byron was heavily involved there for many years, including on the 1000 series, Destino and X), with the "standard" bell recipe clearly having been copied to produce such a convincing result. BUT, if the particular Besson you are wishing to match happens to not be "standard" from that over half-century period that these horns were largely unchanged, or if it has been modified, the result might not be as you hope.
Of similar characteristics (though we all perceive these things differently) may be Kanstul Chicago series (1000, 1001) or the Burbank trumpets (which were built by Kanstul), or of course actual Benges (non-KMI). The Kanstuls mentioned are all Benge derived, and Benge stated a goal early on of making a better, but still faithful to the original performing characteristics, Besson.
[and Besson built that design from 1880 (or slightly before) until shortly after the German occupation of Paris] |
I saw the notice on the Kanstul site about their indefinite halt to production, but was wondering if there might be any existing inventory of new ones out there that some of the music stores that exhibit at ITG might still have. I know that the new Paris model would be excepted since it was just a concept, but from what I understand, the Chicago model was a copy of the Benge, which was a copy of the Bessons. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Hi-Note76 wrote: | | I saw the notice on the Kanstul site about their indefinite halt to production, but was wondering if there might be any existing inventory of new ones out there that some of the music stores that exhibit at ITG might still have. I know that the new Paris model would be excepted since it was just a concept, but from what I understand, the Chicago model was a copy of the Benge, which was a copy of the Bessons. |
There is a difference in the Benge-alikes, which is that characteristic Benge bell forming and tempering, which is a lot like Besson, but recognizably unique. You might like it better, or perhaps a little less.
The more horns you try the better though - every so often, when you are expecting nothing from a random horn, you play on it and realize "this is it", and have to have it. At ITG, try them all.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Hi-Note76
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| tptjazzboy28 wrote: | I would suggest you check out the Shires CVP (vintage Paris) horns. While I have only played one of their earlier prototypes a few years ago, I remember thinking it was an awesome horn. Plus it’s available in a few different bore sizes that you could check out.
Good luck on the hunt! |
Yes, I had the Shires on the list to try. I'll look at the Adams, too. Thanks. |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| tptjazzboy28 wrote: | I would suggest you check out the Shires CVP (vintage Paris) horns. While I have only played one of their earlier prototypes a few years ago, I remember thinking it was an awesome horn. Plus it’s available in a few different bore sizes that you could check out.
I would also strongly recommend looking into the Adams line. I am a bit biased as I used to work for Trent at Austin Custom Brass where I had a chance to play close to 100 Adams horns. Their line offers many different models, with their own feel and sound. Super horns!
Good luck on the hunt! |
The CVP didn't exist yet, when I played through the Shires line at a previous ITG, but the CLP felt like a good old Besson when I played it years ago. If I had been playing more at the time, I probably would have bought it. I'd like to try the CVP to see what that's like.
My Benge is also similar, probably one of the more similar horns that are fairly common. It's got it's unique Benge qualities, as well.
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Flip Oakes
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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https://flipoakes.com/legend-bb-trumpet/
The Flip Oakes Legend Bb Trumpet is based on the French Besson Brevette. It's a .460 bore. Please take a look at the website.
All The Best,
Flip Oakes
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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There's no need to buy a new horn. The Olds Mendez model was a copy of Rafael Mendez's Besson. That's as close as you're ever going to come to a Besson without it being a Besson. The Olds Mendez is an awesome horn. If it was good enough for Rafael to replace his Besson it should be good enough for you, too.
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Louise Finch
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Hi Hi-Note76
I'm in a hurry, so haven't had time to really look properly, but I had a feeling that I had seen a Besson Brevette on the website of Trevor Jones in the UK.
I checked and I'm right. Is this the trumpet you are looking for:
https://trevorjonesltd.co.uk/French-Besson-Brevette-Trumpet.htm
Admittedly it does have two patches, but it says that it has been reconditioned. Sorry, I haven't time to really check out the photo to ascertain the condition. I also fully appreciate that you are in the US.
All the best
Lou
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Hi-Note76
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | Hi Hi-Note76
I checked and I'm right. Is this the trumpet you are looking for:
https://trevorjonesltd.co.uk/French-Besson-Brevette-Trumpet.htm
Admittedly it does have two patches, but it says that it has been reconditioned. Sorry, I haven't time to really check out the photo to ascertain the condition. I also fully appreciate that you are in the US.
All the best
Lou |
Hi Lou. Thanks for checking for me. Yes, that is horn that I'm looking for. Yes, I am concerned about patches for a couple of reasons. Maybe I'm wrong, but my logic is that if there's a patch on the outside, there's corrosion or something else that would cause a hole or a rougher surface on the inside, which might equate to an interruption in acoustical energy or air flow inside the horn, thus an alteration in sound.
I recall seeing something, either a video or a narrative by Dave Monette recently in which he tells his customers to never let another repairman other than his own shop work on his horns because they aren't aware of Monette's proprietary processes and using things such as dent rollers to remove dents would change the "temper" of the metal, thus affecting the pitch center, and on and on.
Those claims may be a bit extreme, I really don't know how much truth there is to that, I'm skeptical actually, but nevertheless, a patch is something more profound because it's welding more metal on top of existing metal and I can't see how that wouldn't have a dampening and sound-altering effect. What is also peculiar about the particular horn on the Trevor Jones site is that the patches are on the bell crook. That seems to be an odd place for patches. Typically I have known patches to be used on lead pipes and tuning slides because that's the section of the horn that is most exposed to rotting food, acids, and the like, thus causing red rot/corrosion. On those older horns, red rot is less of a concern because the metal that they used back then was resistant to it. I've also seen patches on valve casings and other places where constant contact with the hands and the player's skin oil have worn the metal down to the point of a hole. But the bell crook? I wonder what circumstances caused the need for patches in that particular area. And I would think a patch on the bell might affect the sound more than on other areas of the horn, except maybe the lead pipe.
Of course, one never knows until actually playing the horn, but given its location I'm not inclined to bring it all the way to the USA given the concerns.
Otherwise, that's the model of horn that I'm looking for and the price is right. The lacquer looks nice. Again, thank you for looking. I hadn't seen that one in my search. If you see another one without patches, please let me know! |
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Hi-Note76
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Flip Oakes wrote: | https://flipoakes.com/legend-bb-trumpet/
The Flip Oakes Legend Bb Trumpet is based on the French Besson Brevette. It's a .460 bore. Please take a look at the website.
All The Best,
Flip Oakes |
Thanks Flip. Assuming that your horns will be represented at ITG I will be sure to try that one out. |
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Hi-Note76
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | There's no need to buy a new horn. The Olds Mendez model was a copy of Rafael Mendez's Besson. That's as close as you're ever going to come to a Besson without it being a Besson. The Olds Mendez is an awesome horn. If it was good enough for Rafael to replace his Besson it should be good enough for you, too. |
Thank you Hermokiwi. After looking into this a little, I saw that the Olds Mendez model was patterned after the Besson Meha, which was designed to be a brighter playing horn than the Brevete.
I want that Brevete sound.
Last edited by Hi-Note76 on Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Manuel de los Campos
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Hi-Note76 wrote: | Yes, I am concerned about patches for a couple of reasons. Maybe I'm wrong, but my logic is that if there's a patch on the outside, there's corrosion or something else that would cause a hole or a rougher surface on the inside, which might equate to an interruption in acoustical energy or air flow inside the horn, thus an alteration in sound.
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Don't worry, patches are okee, the horn of Herb Alpert was patched and he sounded great on it
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Hi-Note76 wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | There's no need to buy a new horn. The Olds Mendez model was a copy of Rafael Mendez's Besson. That's as close as you're ever going to come to a Besson without it being a Besson. The Olds Mendez is an awesome horn. If it was good enough for Rafael to replace his Besson it should be good enough for you, too. |
Thank you Hermokiwi. Is there a particular range of serial numbers in the Mendez horn that are the ones to look for? |
I'm not aware of any particular range of serial numbers that is considered better than any other range. Olds was a very consistent manufacturer with very high standards.
That being said, if I was looking for a Mendez trumpet (I already have a Mendez trumpet made in 1965) I would focus on serial numbers prior to the 1972 production year. That's because Zig Kanstul left Olds in 1972 and during his tenure there (1952 - 1972) the quality standards were very high. After Zig left things got less stringent at Olds.
According to various websites the first Mendez trumpet was made in 1952 and was serial number (approximately) 86,000. Olds was up to serial number (approximately) 750,000 by June, 1971. You can see the serial number list here:
https://www.adams-music.com/instrumenten/serienummer/olds.asp?lid=1033
Certainly anything made from 1952 to 1969 is safe territory.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Hi-Note76 wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | There's no need to buy a new horn. The Olds Mendez model was a copy of Rafael Mendez's Besson. That's as close as you're ever going to come to a Besson without it being a Besson. The Olds Mendez is an awesome horn. If it was good enough for Rafael to replace his Besson it should be good enough for you, too. |
Thank you Hermokiwi. After looking into this a little, I saw that the Olds Mendez model was patterned after the Besson Meha, which was designed to be a brighter playing horn than the Brevete.
I want that Brevete sound. |
There is a lot of mythology around the Mendez. Yes, it has some Besson influences, but is hardly a clone. The wrap is taller. The bell is besson-like, but a unique taper. The leadpipe is a unique taper. The valves have Olds porting. With its valves tight, a Mendez has a noticeably more open blow than a Besson with equally good valves. The bracing on the Mendez that deliberately includes small tuned secondary resonances is unique to the horn. And Mendez had more than one Besson, so it wasn't to replace that one and only horn. (He actually liked another Olds model (though it was never a production model) better in later years - so much so he arranged an accident for the Mendez he was pressured to use on tour)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Hi-Note76 wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | There's no need to buy a new horn. The Olds Mendez model was a copy of Rafael Mendez's Besson. That's as close as you're ever going to come to a Besson without it being a Besson. The Olds Mendez is an awesome horn. If it was good enough for Rafael to replace his Besson it should be good enough for you, too. |
Thank you Hermokiwi. After looking into this a little, I saw that the Olds Mendez model was patterned after the Besson Meha, which was designed to be a brighter playing horn than the Brevete.
I want that Brevete sound. |
According to the Besson Loyalist website the Olds Mendez was patterned after Rafael's Besson Brevete. Here's the link:
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/TheBessonLoyalist.htm
Here's the quote from the website:
"The Besson Brevete was a very popular choice for generations of Jazz trumpeters, and was played at various times by artists like Miles Davis, Rafael Mendez (the Olds Mendez was basically a copy of his old Brevete), Lee Morgan, and Fats Navarro."
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HERMOKIWI |
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Hi-Note76
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Location: Southeastern US
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Hi-Note76 wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | There's no need to buy a new horn. The Olds Mendez model was a copy of Rafael Mendez's Besson. That's as close as you're ever going to come to a Besson without it being a Besson. The Olds Mendez is an awesome horn. If it was good enough for Rafael to replace his Besson it should be good enough for you, too. |
Thank you Hermokiwi. After looking into this a little, I saw that the Olds Mendez model was patterned after the Besson Meha, which was designed to be a brighter playing horn than the Brevete.
I want that Brevete sound. |
According to the Besson Loyalist website the Olds Mendez was patterned after Rafael's Besson Brevete. Here's the link:
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/TheBessonLoyalist.htm
Here's the quote from the website:
"The Besson Brevete was a very popular choice for generations of Jazz trumpeters, and was played at various times by artists like Miles Davis, Rafael Mendez (the Olds Mendez was basically a copy of his old Brevete), Lee Morgan, and Fats Navarro." |
Now that I look back at the source of the information that I saw, it happens to be the same person who supposedly listed, sold, then re-listed the Besson on ebay. So, "strike two" on his credibility. I saw on Steve Dillard's website an Olds Mendez that said that it was modeled after the Brevete. I trust that you and Steve are correct. |
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