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Question about upgrading from student horn


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SarahK
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Question about upgrading from student horn Reply with quote

In various articles I've read about upgrading from a student to an intermediate or pro horn, it says one reason to upgrade would be when the horn is "stopping the student from progressing". What exactly does that mean in trumpet terms?
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's referring to progressing into credit card debt.

But seriously, there is no nuance to the statement. You can take it at face value. It's like any other thing. Your abilities can outgrow a tool. The question is, is your horn holding you back? How do you know if it is holding you back? Int most cases, it would take a competent teacher or music director to tell you that. There are no certifications offered in knowing when someone needs a better trumpet, so there is an element of trust. Also lust, in many cases.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Student instruments are designed for players who are underdeveloped in terms of air usage and sound production. Once upon a time, they were sturdy instruments that would last a long time. Now, however, many of them might as well be considered disposable. There is more mass production and less time spent on student horns. On instruments besides trumpet you get additional playing aides to make certain things easier (F-attachments, fourth valve, extra keys to reach lower notes on woodwinds, a left hand Ab/Eb key on clarinet, etc).

There are physical things that are different about intermediate/pro trumpet like better valve/slide action, more open blow, higher end finishes and there are more nuance related things like the ability to change tone colors.
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plp
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a nutshell, a student horn is designed to be durable, and easy to get a stable sound on, usually having to do with the leadpipe design.

Great example are the Getzen 300's, Holton 601's, Conn Directors, and Yamaha 23 series trumpets and cornets. They are heavier braced, had bells made of thicker materials, and the leadpipes are designed for ease of tone production, with a level of resistance to help set up a standing wave of sound . I would add the Bach TR series, although I have no experience with them.

Forget anything called intermediate, are usually a student horn with a little bling to up the price. It is more marketing than anything else. Case in point, the MF 550 Admiral, pretty much a dressed up student horn with the brand and silver plating.

Professional trumpets and cornets run the gamut in design, and are geared to enhance certain characteristics inherent to the individual. Two that come to mind as great 'one size fits all' pro horns are the Bach Strad 180-37 and the Yamaha Xeno. Both brands offer variants, also pro horns, to accentuate certain characteristics of tone and intonation. Some pro horns have a very wide pitch center which in the hands of a less developed player can lead to intonation problems. Some, like the two listed previously, play very well in tune with themselves but have a bit too much resistance for effective work in the upper register for sustained periods.

By and large, pro horns also are made of thinner materials, to enhance resonance, and are a bit more fragile. They require more care and cleaning to play at their optimum level.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Qualities Reply with quote

Hello SarahK,
Welcome to the TH. Specifically, pro horns have one piece bells, better valves, slides that work and have a variety of responses to choose from. Quality of build is better. As one stated, Intermediate trumpets are mostly upgrades student models, so a jump to a pro horn makes a lot of better sense. Do some research and find a good used pro horn. My choices would be Bach, Schilke and Yamaha. I have owned all three brands. I do have my favorite...
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good responses. Don’t even consider an intermediate horn. Most are just a beginner horn with a few bells and whistles, as previously stated. Go with a pro horn. Used is fine. We can give you tips on what to look for in selecting a used horn, if needed. For instance, a little silver wear often greatly reduces the price, even when the rest of the horn is in great shape - therefore a good buy. Usually the wear is at the hand contact points - and your hands cover it when holding the horn so not that noticeable.

You will find a trillion suggestions as for brand. Most any pro horn is fine. Personally, for most folks, the Bach Strad is a great place to start. It is the most produced pro horn, and the horn that other pro horns are usually compared to. It you get it and for some strange reason don’t like it, it is easy to sell and recoup your money. Good luck.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Qualities Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello SarahK,
Welcome to the TH. Specifically, pro horns have one piece bells.



Monette and Eclipse horns has two piece bells. They are both very $$$$$$$ pro horns...
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Question Reply with quote

Hello all,
Manuel wrote:

Monette and Eclipse horns has two piece bells. They are both very $$$$$$$ pro horns...

Don't know much about these horns. Nor would I recommend either one for a student to buy anyway. I am sure they are nice instruments...Oh. I live in Oregon, and have known Dave since the 80's. Not really a pro horn for a student. IMO.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about upgrading from student horn Reply with quote

SarahK wrote:
... says one reason to upgrade would be when the horn is "stopping the student from progressing". What exactly does that mean in trumpet terms?

--------------------------
The idea of an 'upgrade' is nebulous, and is much different than 'fixing an obvious problem or defect'.
If a trumpet has some really bad (or unplayable) notes, or the valves aren't reliable, that would 'stop progress'.

I think the most obvious reason an upgrade could be justified is to get 'better sound quality' - and that depends on the who's doing the comparison, the type of music, the room, etc.

If a trumpet operates correctly (valve action, intonation, no 'bad notes'), then another consideration is whether a different trumpet just 'feels better'. Maybe just how it fits your hand, or the 'feedback' you get when playing it.

For even advanced amateur players, it would be very unusual for someone to be criticized because of the 'sound quality' DUE TO the INSTRUMENT - as long as they are playing the right note, in tune, and at the right time! The director might say they'd like the sound to be more xyz-ish, but that's usually what the director 'hopes for' and not likely something they'd say 'do it, or else'.

For players who are auditioning for a high-level prestigious group, then 'sound quality' could be an issue.

And of course, sometimes a student is inspired by getting a 'pro horn' and is motivated to become a player who deserves such an instrument.

If a more expensive horn is bought - KEEP the student horn and use it for events such as: parades, marching band, pep band, etc.

Jay
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a proper student horn is designed with a few things in mind. Other posters have touched on a number of them.

1) Easy to make a sound. My Holton Collegiate from 1969 had a lead pipe that stayed small for a large portion of its length and the swelled up to the full diameter near the end. It wasn't a straight taper, it was almost like a miniature bell. It played easily with a decent sound, but its intonation went all to heck with a mute stuck in it.

2) Heavier construction. Resistant to incidental damage, forgiving of minor damage, easy to repair.

3) Less time commitment in development and manufacturing. Lower overall cost to produce. Years ago, Kanstul took the opportunity to train new staff by having them produce student horns.

4) Utilizing less successful design elements not suitable for professional level instruments. I have experienced this in at least two different brands, where the horns just didn't resonate well and didn't project well. In one case, the horn produced an uneven response throughout the various registers. This aspect of the student instrument is where the horn can hold a player back, along with the reasons in #1.

5) Adjustable 3rd valve finger ring and dimensions sized for smaller hands.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about upgrading from student horn Reply with quote

SarahK wrote:
In various articles I've read about upgrading from a student to an intermediate or pro horn, it says one reason to upgrade would be when the horn is "stopping the student from progressing". What exactly does that mean in trumpet terms?


The truth is, few students are being held back by their instrument, assuming it’s in good mechanical condition and is a decent student instrument to begin with. That phrase is aimed at well intentioned parents, who are led to believe their kid will have an easier time and compete better on a better horn, and the differences between student and intermediate are usually just cosmetic upgrades. The whole concept of intermediate trumpets is pretty much just to sell more horns to kids. Instead of two (beginning and pro), toss in intermediate, voila’, an extra sale to every (the sellers hope) kid.

Brad
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SarahK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow... grateful for your generous and exhaustive replies! Right now I'm playing on a Yamaha 2335 and am very happy with it, so I don't think I'll be upgrading for a while, unless that thing called "lust" (as jetjaguar mentioned) gets in the way!!!
It's interesting the price differences between different instruments - I played flute before I switched to trumpet, and upgrading from a Selmer to a Trevor James cost me €1700... Now THAT might get me a nice new horn...
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think a good quality student-level trumpet will "hold anyone back", but you may have to work a bit harder on one as you progress. You will come to a point in your development when you can better perceive shortcomings in a student trumpet and make a valid comparison to a pro-level instrument when you play one. Basically, a pro-level instrument will make what you can already do, easier.
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a new (older) guy in a pro big band I play with that is using an Olds Ambassador. No issues.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevericks wrote:
There is a new (older) guy in a pro big band I play with that is using an Olds Ambassador. No issues.


I played lead in a big band on an Olds Ambassador for a while just to shame the others who were playing expensive trumpets...lol. It worked OK in that setting, but I sure wouldn't try to use one for classical music.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SarahK wrote:
Wow... grateful for your generous and exhaustive replies! Right now I'm playing on a Yamaha 2335 and am very happy with it, so I don't think I'll be upgrading for a while, unless that thing called "lust" (as jetjaguar mentioned) gets in the way!!!
It's interesting the price differences between different instruments - I played flute before I switched to trumpet, and upgrading from a Selmer to a Trevor James cost me €1700... Now THAT might get me a nice new horn...


If you play flute, you see how spoiled us trumpet people are with regards to costs!

Brad
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grune
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
It's referring to progressing into credit card debt.

But seriously, there is no nuance to the statement. You can take it at face value. It's like any other thing. Your abilities can outgrow a tool. The question is, is your horn holding you back? How do you know if it is holding you back? Int most cases, it would take a competent teacher or music director to tell you that. There are no certifications offered in knowing when someone needs a better trumpet, so there is an element of trust. Also lust, in many cases.


Great sense of humour. Thanks - I needed a good chuckle. But, the points are so very true.

To the OP... your current horn is a good one.
Fact: a "good" student horn can carry you a very long way - I have played pro-gigs using so-called student horns. I do not endorse brands, but I think any of the top-notch brands have very good "student" horns. Myself, I would look for a horn having rings on the 1st and 3rd slides. The bore depends upon you: a medium bore will take you a very long way. When ready to audition for an orchestra, most students will graduate to a Bach 37, as the majority of orchestras prefer the Bach sound - but this preference is changing rapidly now. good luck!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I began learning to play the trumpet with a used Bach TR300, which I found in a pawn shop - and paid $85.00 for it. I played it during the first several months of playing including taking lessons, and I realized that I could continue playing it more or less, indefinitely. Eventually however, as I progressed in my playing and enjoying it more and more, I came to the realization that I was going to play the trumpet for the rest of my days. So, about 1 year into trumpet blowing, I decided to move up to a pro horn. After reading all the excellent reviews on the Severinsen Destino 3 Star, I decided that was the one for me. I've never regretted the purchase and I am in no hurry to change horns. The Destino allows me to be all the trumpeter I can be, and there's plenty of room to grow into that trumpet.

So, to the OP, if you think you're going to stick with it and continue to play long term and grow as a musician, then I would encourage you to upgrade to a pro horn. Shop wisely however.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about upgrading from student horn Reply with quote

SarahK wrote:
In various articles I've read about upgrading from a student to an intermediate or pro horn, it says one reason to upgrade would be when the horn is "stopping the student from progressing". What exactly does that mean in trumpet terms?


I have played pro horn in Vegas & Broadway shows, as well as w/many big bands & other groups in my 50+ years of playing. I have owned at least 120 trumpets & currently have in my recording studio about 2 dozen..........I cannot think of a better trumpet than a Jupiter 606-MR for an advanced student or a professional.......Yes, Monette and other "custom" horns are "better," but, an "intermediate" horn never hurt or stopped Chet Baker or Clifford Brown from achieving their greatness..........you can buy a great Jupiter on ebay for a few hundred dollars & you will be VERY happy w/it! Trust me on this!
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Question Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
Manuel wrote:

Monette and Eclipse horns has two piece bells. They are both very $$$$$$$ pro horns...

Don't know much about these horns. Nor would I recommend either one for a student to buy anyway. I am sure they are nice instruments...Oh. I live in Oregon, and have known Dave since the 80's. Not really a pro horn for a student. IMO.

I know a guy who blew a major symphony audition because he was playing an 'M' (two piece bell) and they wanted to hear a 'B' (one piece bell). "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."

BTW my vintage Getzen Severinson has a 2 piece bell and it is grreat for lmy purposes, primarily a jazz/commercial player.
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