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Dubba Confusion!


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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:30 pm    Post subject: Dubba Confusion! Reply with quote

I'm a bit confused as to where a 'Dubba' actually starts. It was recently explained to me that the 'Dubba' starts at the octave above 1st ledger line 'A'.

So starting at the 1st ledger line is it... 'High' - A,B,C,D,E,F,G... THEN... 'Double' A, B, C, etc.??

Sometimes people refer to 4th ledger G as 'Double G'... is that incorrect?

So where does 'High' begin/end and where does 'Double High' start??

Thanks.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This subject is a can of worms that has been discussed many times on TH.

A lot of players (including me) treat the "doubles" as beginning at G on the 4th ledger line above the staff. That's just the way I learned it from other trumpet players. The posts here on TH seem to usually follow that system.

However, this system is not technically accurate based on the piano keyboard. So, when talking about "doubles" the issue is whether you want to be technically accurate or you want to communicate using the language/meanings familiar to most trumpet players. That's where a lot of the "can of worms" conflict lies.

Good luck getting everyone to agree!
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's basically two camps...

Those that count it from G.
And those that count it from C.


IMHO many times starting at G is players that can get the G but not the C... Those that can get C and up tend to start it at C - unless they're conversing with people who are talking about high G as a double, many indulge it.
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Tobylou8
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




This is the easiest way to explain it. Regardless of what you want to call it, C5 is still C5. You can have people think you can play C6, but when they hear you, they will know you can't and that you don't know what C6 is called.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer to embrace clarity.

Scientific pitch notation (C1, C2, etc) is great until until you run into someone used to a different convention. Piano middle C is C4, but some electronic keyboard manufacturers (Yamaha and others) call piano middle C other things: either C3 or C5. So the numbers aren’t always clear.

The notation using ‘ (C’, C’’, etc) is clear enough but not widely taught in America. It’s also a hassle to write.

Double G is either above high C or above double C. Usually it’s clear from context, but not always.

Therefore, themost clear system when talking with trumpet players is to reference everything to its relation with the staff and the Cs.

G below the staff
Second line G
G on top of the staff
G above high C
G above double C

Essentially I prefer the system described here by Jon Ruff:

Link
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully we all agree that treble clef staff lines go from the first line e above written middle-c, up to the f at the top line of the staff.

x below the staff
n line / space x (counting lines and spaces UP from bottom line e to top line f)
first x above the staff
whatever following x above the staff

This is somewhat cumbersome, but eliminates the need for terms such as 'high', 'double', etc.
And it doesn't require knowledge about any particular 'naming convention' for the notes - only the ability to visualize the standard written plain treble staff.

Jay
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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe this is such a mystery to people.

Start with the lowest note on the trumpet - low F#.

Now figure it out from there.

If you have trouble figuring it out, here's a little help:

The double register starts with the F# above high C. That would be a double F#.

The triple register starts with the F# above double C.

Most people don't refer to double G or double A as doubles. They usually don't start referring to notes as "double high" until they get to double C.
But that's their mistake. Technically, the double register begins with the F# below double C (or above high C as I stated earlier).

Now there. Was that so difficult?
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct or incorrect isn't really the relevant question. The question is clear communication. There isn't really a right or wrong when naming things as long as it communicates effectively. The problem with lows and highs and dubbas are the variety of conventions used even within the same geographic area. The same goes for any kind of numbering system. C4 is piano middle C until it isn't (ask Yamaha why their computer programmer brains start numbering from zero). There are simply too many systems and too many people convinced that their system is correct and most logical. That should be clear from even this short thread. As Jon Ruff's video describes, arguing over pancakes vs. flapjacks usually isn't the point of the story.

The more verbally cumbersome approaches such as that described by JayKosta or Jon Ruff in the video eliminate the need to be right and go straight to clarity and not being wrong.

Truthfully, I tend to think of the terms high G and double G (as well as high A/double A and so on) as describing the same octave - the one above high C and below double C - since that's most often the case. If I were told that a part has high Gs in it, clearly they don't mean G on top of the staff. If I were told that a part has double Gs in it, they also most likely don't mean G above double C. They are most likely talking about the same pitch.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi-Note76 wrote:

Start with the lowest note on the trumpet - low F#.

Technically, the double register begins with the F# below double C


That's what make sense to me and it seems more ‘trumpet-centric’ ... it would start with the lowest F# and be something like…

‘LOW’… F# (below the staff)… ascending until it repeats…

‘Regular Ol’ F# (1st space)… until it repeats

‘HIGH’… F# (top line)… until it repeats…

‘DOUBLE’… F# (4th space above the staff)… until it repeats

‘TRIPLE’… etc… (I won’t have to worry much about it!!)

It made sense to me, but then again I’ve never been ‘quite right’!

So… at this point in time it seems like the most ‘failsafe’ method for 'comunicating'[ is the one in the Jon Ruff video posted by JoseLindE4… the downside being that you have to write a short paragraph to describe the pitch location on the staff!!
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
There's basically two camps...

Those that count it from G.
And those that count it from C.


IMHO many times starting at G is players that can get the G but not the C... Those that can get C and up tend to start it at C - unless they're conversing with people who are talking about high G as a double, many indulge it.


This.

To me, referring to fourth ledger line G as “ double “ is rather high school.

Brad
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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My previous post is technically correct.

From a practical standpoint, I've never encountered a problem communicating or interpreting what notes people are talking about or asking me to play.

In practical situations, when someone says "high G," we all know that's referring to double G, because even though it's technically a double G, the G on top of the staff isn't really that high a note in the grand scheme of things. So typically, in the real world, few people refer to the "double register" until you get to a double C. So you have double C and double D, and very few people can play above that, so it becomes moot after that.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi-Note76 wrote:
My previous post is technically correct.


In a very narrow and trumpet-centric sense, there's a logic in what you describe.

Whether it's "technically correct" to name notes based on trumpet range or whether it's more accurate to base your naming conventions on reference points that are relevant to other instruments too.... It's a perennial debate.

As far as I'm concerned, switching at C's makes more sense broadly - I think the emotional attachment that trumpet players get to double range may be involved in some people's decision making when it comes to electing to change at G.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Jon in the video and Pops on his website, ITG decided in the 1970s to switch octave designation at C, which gives support for calling A above high C, “high A.”

This confusion isn’t limited to just trumpet. See the trouble of naming the Cs here: https://dictionary.onmusic.org/appendix/topics/octaves.
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Tobylou8
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Hi-Note76 wrote:
My previous post is technically correct.


In a very narrow and trumpet-centric sense, there's a logic in what you describe.

Whether it's "technically correct" to name notes based on trumpet range or whether it's more accurate to base your naming conventions on reference points that are relevant to other instruments too.... It's a perennial debate.

As far as I'm concerned, switching at C's makes more sense broadly - I think the emotional attachment that trumpet players get to double range may be involved in some people's decision making when it comes to electing to change at G.
Absolutely!!
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boog
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soooo...why can't we just identify these notes above the staff by ledger lines, like a low brass player would?

Is the note called a "Double C" written on top of the 5th ledger line above the staff or not? Of course...let's go by the staff nomenclature...

Now, where does the "double" register begin? If at High C (2 ledger lines up) then Double D would be between the 2nd and 3rd ledger lines up?

Or not...
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boog
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Addendum:

FWIW, I have always considered the "Double" register as starting from C between 5 and 6 ledger lines up. Double D is 6 ledger lines up, etc...

I will consult with a flautist a the next rehearsal.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The G 4 ledger lines about high C is High G.

Say what you want, think what you want. That's what it is
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi-Note76 wrote:
I can't believe this is such a mystery to people.

Start with the lowest note on the trumpet - low F#.

Now figure it out from there.

If you have trouble figuring it out, here's a little help:

The double register starts with the F# above high C. That would be a double F#.

The triple register starts with the F# above double C.

Most people don't refer to double G or double A as doubles. They usually don't start referring to notes as "double high" until they get to double C.
But that's their mistake. Technically, the double register begins with the F# below double C (or above high C as I stated earlier).

Now there. Was that so difficult?


Double F#
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=“Hi-Note76"]
In practical situations, when someone says "high G," we all know that's referring to double G, because even though it's technically a double G, the G on top of the staff isn't really that high a note in the grand scheme of things. So typically, in the real world, few people refer to the "double register" until you get to a double C. [/quote]

Yes, this certainly makes sense form a practical/ real world viewpoint!



TKSop wrote:
Hi-Note76 wrote:
My previous post is technically correct.


In a very narrow and trumpet-centric sense, there's a logic in what you describe.

Whether it's "technically correct" to name notes based on trumpet range


It seems likely that that the root of ‘note naming’ confusion is BECAUSE we choose to ignore the range of the trumpet and base naming conventions on reference points that are relevant to other instruments. Doesn’t everyone know that the trumpet IS the most important instrument??!!!



Brad361 wrote:
TKSop wrote:


IMHO many times starting at G is players that can get the G but not the C... Those that can get C and up tend to start it at C - unless they're conversing with people who are talking about high G as a double, many indulge it.



To me, referring to fourth ledger line G as “ double “ is rather high school.

Brad


So… (advocating for the devil)…. might there also be an ‘elitist’ component to where the high note ‘fence’ is placed??

I was thinking of calling my ‘tuning note’ C… ‘Double’ C… that way I’d be able to play ‘Quads’!!! Haha!

Personally, I was hoping that the trumpet note naming scheme would actually be based on the trumpet range, as it’s already confusing enough that when I play a ‘C’ it’s actually a ‘Bb’!! This is taxing to BOTH of my brain cells!!
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrhappy wrote:

TKSop wrote:
Hi-Note76 wrote:
My previous post is technically correct.


In a very narrow and trumpet-centric sense, there's a logic in what you describe.

Whether it's "technically correct" to name notes based on trumpet range


It seems likely that that the root of ‘note naming’ confusion is BECAUSE we choose to ignore the range of the trumpet and base naming conventions on reference points that are relevant to other instruments. Doesn’t everyone know that the trumpet IS the most important instrument??!!!


Well, I guess the question is this:
Do we care whether what we call notes makes sense to non-trumpet players?
In cases where a trumpet player plays another instrument, should they learn two sets of names?

In certain closed environments (like BBB's) where the instruments are all brass and have similar octave spreads, it makes some amount of sense to just pick a set of names that make sense for brass instruments (albeit "doubles" don't feature in pretty much any BBB writing, even as optional lines - I've had high E written on sop parts a few times and used high G once or twice when appropriate but it's really rare for any part to go above its high C or D).

Quote:

Brad361 wrote:
TKSop wrote:


IMHO many times starting at G is players that can get the G but not the C... Those that can get C and up tend to start it at C - unless they're conversing with people who are talking about high G as a double, many indulge it.



To me, referring to fourth ledger line G as “ double “ is rather high school.

Brad


So… (advocating for the devil)…. might there also be an ‘elitist’ component to where the high note ‘fence’ is placed??

I was thinking of calling my ‘tuning note’ C… ‘Double’ C… that way I’d be able to play ‘Quads’!!! Haha!

Personally, I was hoping that the trumpet note naming scheme would actually be based on the trumpet range, as it’s already confusing enough that when I play a ‘C’ it’s actually a ‘Bb’!! This is taxing to BOTH of my brain cells!!


I see where your devil is headed... you're asking whether those who have the undisputed double (the C) are refusing to count the notes below it in order to keep the club more exclusive?

I don't generally think so - the Kurt T's of this world aside most people with the ability to get up there in a usable manner are usually accomplished enough in other ways to appreciate that it's just another facet to the bow - it's the "trumpet jocks" that try to develop high registers purely for showing off, without any finesse or musicality that are more likely to feel motivated to name it based on personal biases, IMHO.
(But maybe you have a point with some? I'm not sure).

I can see a logic in naming it by the trumpet players range when talking to trumpet players... but in the KISS fashion ("keep it simple, stupid") it seems to make little sense to have one naming convention when talking amongst ourselves and then having to translate into general musical notation when talking to (or being spoken to) by other musicians (or conductors).

I just wish it were as simple as everyone accepting the traditional conventions and getting on with it... because it's so split at this point, the methods mentioned earlier (describing by ledger lines, or with reference to agreed upon notes) often becomes necessary for any kind of clarity, which in itself is something of a shame (IMHO).
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