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Flugelhorns to Try at ITG


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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject: Flugelhorns to Try at ITG Reply with quote

Hello friends:

I posted recently about suggestions for trumpet to try at ITG. I'm also looking for a flugelhorn. I have an old Getzen Eterna that's worn out.

As I look for a new one to buy, I'm looking for one that is easy to play, in other words, responds well, handles like a trumpet, has great intonation and plays well in the upper register.

I'm NOT so concerned about getting that buttery Couesnon sound. I love that sound, but I'm not a hard-core jazz improvisationalist. I'm primarily a commercial player, thus most of the time that I play flugelhorn, it's when I'm covering Chuck Mangione material or playing the flugel parts for Quincy Jones-produced 80s material, such as Michael Jackson, George Benson, James Ingram, etc. I want to be able to play that high D on Feels So Good without fighting to keep it in tune. I want the horn to play similar to a trumpet up there.

From what I've heard, the Yamaha 8310Z (Shew) flugelhorn is the best flugelhorn to fit this bill. I've never tried one, I've never seen one in stock at a music store due to the pathetic situation with regard to stores stocking instruments. But I'm looking forward to hopefully getting to try one at ITG.

I'm wondering if anyone can recommend other horns that might be able to compete with the Yamaha according to the playing criteria that I've provided. I'm not looking to spend a fortune since I don't play flugel heavily, but when I do, I want a horn that responds similarly to a trumpet, and plays in tune with itself. I do not wish to spend over $3K. Has anyone tried anything by CarolBrass or other inexpensive brands that might work?

By the way, I spent over a hundred bucks trialing an ACB doubler's flugel. If anyone wants to recommend that horn, save your breath. Already tried it.

Any suggestions?
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my 8310z Shew flugel, and for what you're describing it would absolutely be a great fit. Here is a link to my review: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148238&highlight=

The 8310z flugel puts out a tremendous amount of sound. It is LOUD. My SO says that it's significantly louder than my trumpet. If you're playing loud pop stuff, this horn can get you where you need to go.

The only other flugel I've ever played that could compete with it is the Adams F1. All those Adams flugels were outstanding, but the F1 is a truly special instrument.

But yeah, for what you're describing - a flugel with a great high range that can still cut through a loud band situation - I would recommend the Yamaha 8310z or the Adams F1.

I have not played one, but you'd better believe that Tony Scodwell is a big band player, so I imagine that his flugelhorn would be a good fit for the types of situations you're describing! So that would also be on my list to try as well, although do bear in mind that I have not played one.

Good luck!
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NikolaTomic
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many excellent flugelhorns on the market at this point in time. I recommend playing Hub van Laar's if you can. They are slightly over your budget limit (and mine at the moment, which is why I'm still playing my 6310z) but worth every penny and more. I do not think there is another manufacturer that can even come close to legitimately competing with these instruments at any price point. They are simply the best. Also worth exploring is Eclipse, though I am not sure of the current prices.

There are other boutique brands that sound nice but are not as easy to play in tune and are not really priced competitively enough to choose over Van Laar or Eclipse.

On the mass production side of things, I've been impressed by XO Brass and Conn Vintage One. Also, the Yamaha 631 could be a great used value, and you might find it more stable than the 8310z.

Happy hunting!
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been on this safari myself.. the last ITG conference specifically.

Definitely go talk to Trent Austin, and try the Adams line-up.. Adams F1-for me.
Van Laar - love them too
Stomvi & Eclipse are pretty darn excellent
I was surprized by CarolBrass's Flugel - loved it in the demo room, but I'd like to hear it in context.
Getzen, Conn - are also pretty darn good

Yamaha 631G - are like the old stand by - excellent in their "comfort level" - to me easy to pick up and play - much like a trumpet. Not quite as warm and fuzzy as some others. But and excellent choice - and Yamaha seems to have shaken the quirky valve action thing.

Some of the vendors bring used instruments as well, you never know what you might find.

I suggest you take a tuner with you as you demo instruments - many Flugels sound good, feel good, but don't play good scales-put these down and move on.
I was told this often by vendors: "if you have a different mouthpiece, my Flugel will play better and in-tune"... I won't say this is a lie, but the mouthpiece will only improve things marginally - if the instrument is out of tune with itself, no mouthpiece choice will fix it.

have a good Safari!
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mention wanting to play high on the horn without struggle - that's as much a function of a good mouthpiece as anything else.

A good flugelhorn can sound bad and have lousy intonation w/the wrong mouthpiece. Yamaha has a pretty good stock 'piece, which is why people can play their horns.

I played many flugelhorns at the last ITG and found the quality level to be high. You might want to spend time on the mouthpiece issue before judging horns.

For instance, unless they've come up with something new, Bach doesn't make a mouthpiece that gets a good sound OR intonation, IMO. And you want to consider which shank mouthpiece most of these horns take. Bach has a different shank from a Yamaha, and those are the two most common tapers in the U.S. market.

Curry, Pickett, or other custom makers are a good way to go.

My 2p.
-Lionel
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely make sure to try the eclipse - excellent flugels
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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
You mention wanting to play high on the horn without struggle - that's as much a function of a good mouthpiece as anything else.

Curry, Pickett, or other custom makers are a good way to go.

My 2p.
-Lionel


That's a good point about the mouthpieces. On trumpet, I play a Marcinkiewicz 10 (stock off-the-shelf model) so I called Marcinkiewicz and asked them for a flugel mouthpiece that was as close to my trumpet mouthpiece in rim diameter and feel as possible. What they sold me was a "Model BSFL." So I've been playing that, but I'm not in love with it. IDK, maybe if I found the right flugel mouthpiece I wouldn't need to buy a new horn(?)

I thought I heard that there was a Curry model that began with a 4 that was supposed to produce good results on flugel? Anyone know anything about that?

But thanks for reminding me about a mouthpiece. I can probably get a bit of a head start on trying mouthpieces as the local stores are more likely to stock mouthpieces than they are the kinds of flugels that I'm looking for.

You know how it is....no one stocks many if any professional model trumpets anymore. They cater to the student trade. And flugels, forget it. You go into Sam Ash and ask them if they have any flugels and they tell you, "oh, we don't get much call for those. .....But we can order them for you." Yeah, well so can I!
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently bought a Manchester flugel from Trent. I was actually thinking about buying another (I had one and sold it) doublers flugel, but he was out of stock. I’m sort of like you, more commercial gigs than straight jazz, and I don’t use a flugel on every gig. For me, the Manchester works well, though in my opinion it’s pretty “mouthpiece sensitive.” Plays very well with my OLD Schilke that I had made years ago with a similar rim to their 15 trumpet mouthpiece, not as good with a Bach 5 that I also have.

Brad
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke's flugelhorn is worth a try. It is pretty bright, as far as flugels go, but it seems that's what you are looking for. I feel it has the best ergonomics of all the top-sprung valve designs that I've tried and workmanship is second to none, IMO.

A used Kanstul 1025 will also fit the bill, though there are two ergonomic changes that I felt I needed to make to the one I used to own that made it perfect in the hand. Kanstul sold a very similar version under the Besson name and they were usually less money. I don't know the model of that one...
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi-Note76 wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
You mention wanting to play high on the horn without struggle - that's as much a function of a good mouthpiece as anything else.

Curry, Pickett, or other custom makers are a good way to go.

My 2p.
-Lionel


That's a good point about the mouthpieces. On trumpet, I play a Marcinkiewicz 10 (stock off-the-shelf model) so I called Marcinkiewicz and asked them for a flugel mouthpiece that was as close to my trumpet mouthpiece in rim diameter and feel as possible. What they sold me was a "Model BSFL." So I've been playing that, but I'm not in love with it. IDK, maybe if I found the right flugel mouthpiece I wouldn't need to buy a new horn(?)

I thought I heard that there was a Curry model that began with a 4 that was supposed to produce good results on flugel? Anyone know anything about that?

But thanks for reminding me about a mouthpiece. I can probably get a bit of a head start on trying mouthpieces as the local stores are more likely to stock mouthpieces than they are the kinds of flugels that I'm looking for.

You know how it is....no one stocks many if any professional model trumpets anymore. They cater to the student trade. And flugels, forget it. You go into Sam Ash and ask them if they have any flugels and they tell you, "oh, we don't get much call for those. .....But we can order them for you." Yeah, well so can I!


Most stock flugel mouthpieces are too shallow. With a small bore horn (which is right for a flugelhorn) you can get away with a deeper V cup. It improves the tone and gives more flexibility for intonation.

BTW, you mentioned Mr. Mangione. He played a cornet mouthpiece on his flugel for a long time, as I understand it. That's why the sound is, well, different.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go try Adams
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walldaja
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antoine Courtois AC154 is worth a look. The air goes through the valve block without a bunch of turns and provides a real smooth blow.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NikolaTomic wrote:

I've been impressed by XO Brass and Conn Vintage One.


I've been looking into both these horns exact and would like to know any information you can provide. I haven't had the chance to play either horn, because the music stores around me don't have any available. Curious to know what others think
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoughts.

Last edited by dstpt on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the heads-up.

It may be a nice horn, but now that ITG is so close, I'm not buying anything until I've had a chance to play a bunch of brands and decide what works for me the best, whether I buy new or used.

The seller of that horn says that he's only used it twice and the only reason he's getting rid of it is because he's got two others and hates to see this one sit in the case without being played much. Put another way, that means that this seller has two other flugels that he likes better than this one.

I'd like to know what those OTHER two flugels that he has are. I should probably look at those, too.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject: Flugels to try Reply with quote

Hello all,
Seems to be a morning of musings for me. Too much time, but my thought...Unless you are a performing artist, the flugel is a secondary instrument. As a person denotes the percentage of time one plays a flugel, C or other keyed instruments, that should factor in on how much to spend on an instrument that will be played x% of the time. Unless money is not object, you buy the best. If money is an object then you buy the best your dollar can buy. Used Yamahas come to mind.
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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous post, that's consistent with my thinking for the most part. But have you tried to find a Yamaha 8310Z flugelhorn used?

The other side of this coin, is, I've already spent $169 in shipping and restocking fees on a flugel that was inexpensive that I didn't like. So now, if I try a bunch of used horns that I find on Ebay and end up sending them back, how much hassle and shipping expenses am I going to go through in the quest to find the right horn? Will the quest to find the right used horn end up costing me as much money (not to mention the time) as buying a new horn in the under 2K price range?

Ebay is like the wild wild west. People will put lipstick on pigs in order to get rid of them. That's why I want to go to ITG and try a bunch out all in the same day or couple of days. At least I'll be able to hone in on the horn that I want.

And if I end up with a new horn, so be it. I never liked the idea of playing used horns that much anyway. I've never lived in a resale house, either. If I did buy a resale, I'd have all of the tubs, showers, sinks, toilets, A/C system and ducts, and flooring replaced. There's just something that I don't like about immersing myself in an environment in which other people's leftover dead skin cells, dna, germs, stinky feet, farts, burps, and whatever other disgusting bodily emissions were left floating around. That's just me. Yeah, you can have this stuff cleaned, but can you ever have it REALLY cleaned? Every square sixteenth of an inch of it? And just the thought that their stuff WAS there doesn't sit well with me. Germophobe? No.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GEEZE! ITG's a long way off...
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omelet
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not another Getzen since you know you like it?
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Hi-Note76
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

omelet wrote:
Why not another Getzen since you know you like it?


I bought the Getzen in 1979. Since then, a lot has changed and a lot of new brands and models have emerged.

When I bought the Getzen horn, I didn't sign a marriage license with it. I didn't make a commitment to play no other horn(s) for the rest of my life.

So, now it's time to experience some "strange flugel." I don't see anything morally wrong with that, do you?
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