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blasticore Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 3045 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 pm Post subject: Hardest Springs |
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What are the hardest springs available? I've been searching for a while now, and all people seem to be interested in, is lighter and lighter sets. _________________ Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com |
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gchun01 Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Posts: 270
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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The stock springs for King trumpets take the cake currently. Very stiff. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:34 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | The stock springs for King trumpets take the cake currently. Very stiff. |
You’re right about that, and I thought Getzen springs were pretty strong.
My concern is when springs are so stiff they become a distraction.
Now that Benge X series trumpets have been disconinued and valve springs are no longer available, what are folks using? I've found Benge springs are the best match for Martin Committee valves. I guess these will have to do https://osmun.com/high-speed-valve-springs/
I could always tell who studied with Sam Palafian by the excessive tension on their tuba rotor lever springs. That’s just how he liked them and his students followed his lead. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1844 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Becker, do you know of very stiff springs that would fit the Hoxon Gakki valves? I prefer the feel and performance of stiffer springs. The lightweight "fast" springs most people prefer just feel mushy to me.
Thanks for any information you can give. _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
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blasticore Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 3045 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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loweredsixth wrote: | Mr. Becker, do you know of very stiff springs that would fit the Hoxon Gakki valves? |
Oddly enough, that's precisely what I'm looking for. I also prefer the harder set over the softer ones, but I'd like to more competently play faster tunes. I don't necessarily have a problem keeping up, but I've only ever seen a couple sets of springs with the rebound I'm looking for. _________________ Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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James Becker wrote: | yourbrass wrote: | The stock springs for King trumpets take the cake currently. Very stiff. |
You’re right about that, and I thought Getzen springs were pretty strong.
My concern is when springs are so stiff they become a distraction.
Now that Benge X series trumpets have been disconinued and valve springs are no longer available, what are folks using? I've found Benge springs are the best match for Martin Committee valves. I guess these will have to do https://osmun.com/high-speed-valve-springs/
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Holton made a great spring for the Martin spring barrel they were making but those are discontinued as well. When I run out of all the stock I bought, I'll be looking around. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Often people want harder springs thinking they will make the valve action feel crisper. On most makes, the stock springs are just fine and are nicely balanced. Rarely, they are not (I can think of one maker whose springs I regularly change...) Many people actually would get the benefits they are looking for by switching to harder alignment pads. Many shops have started to align valves with squishy foam materials that do not stop the valve positively. The valve can compress the material quite a bit and squish past its intended stopping point. Dense felt, cork, cork composite, or various rubbers all give better, firmer hits and really make the valve action feel crisp without the need for heavy springs. |
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loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1844 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:47 am Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | Often people want harder springs thinking they will make the valve action feel crisper. On most makes, the stock springs are just fine and are nicely balanced. Rarely, they are not (I can think of one maker whose springs I regularly change...) Many people actually would get the benefits they are looking for by switching to harder alignment pads. Many shops have started to align valves with squishy foam materials that do not stop the valve positively. The valve can compress the material quite a bit and squish past its intended stopping point. Dense felt, cork, cork composite, or various rubbers all give better, firmer hits and really make the valve action feel crisp without the need for heavy springs. |
I get what you're saying, but I genuinely prefer the increased resistance harder springs provide. _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
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blasticore Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 3045 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | Often people want harder springs thinking they will make the valve action feel crisper. On most makes, the stock springs are just fine and are nicely balanced. Rarely, they are not (I can think of one maker whose springs I regularly change...) Many people actually would get the benefits they are looking for by switching to harder alignment pads. Many shops have started to align valves with squishy foam materials that do not stop the valve positively. The valve can compress the material quite a bit and squish past its intended stopping point. Dense felt, cork, cork composite, or various rubbers all give better, firmer hits and really make the valve action feel crisp without the need for heavy springs. |
Much like loweredsixth, I'm mostly just looking for a faster rebound. I make it a point to keep all my horn's valves aligned with solid material. I'd just like to play A Train at the tempo the drummer likes to take it. ...It's fast. Too fast. Somebody else's please tell him. _________________ Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Thinking this over, no one here has mentioned the weight of the moving piston assembly made up of the piston, stem and finger button.
King Silver Flair trumpets originally were built with aluminium stems and buttons which made for a very light and quick action. The problem was these were silver plated rather than anodized so the finish failed. Unfortunately King changed over to brass stems and buttons which made the action more "clunky" in my opinion.
I posted elsewhere that Bach piston weight in recent years increased from 33 grams to 39 grams each, at 6 grams that's nearly 20% more.
Conn Constellation piston assemblies are among some of the heaviest made. Given the opportunity I machined away portions of the bottom of the piston and made action rods from 1/4" aluminium rod stock then added lightweight finger buttons. The end results were striking, making the action feel more on par with other maker's valve action.
As for lubrication, we've found Dennis Wick valve oil with PTFE (particles of Teflon added) contributes to very quick valve action. Kudos to Will Spencer for formulating this amazing product!
So you see, there's much more to quick valve action than just changing spring tension.
Cheers! _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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blasticore Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 3045 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:18 am Post subject: |
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James Becker wrote: | Thinking this over, no one here has mentioned the weight of the moving piston assembly made up of the piston, stem and finger button. |
Funny you should mention that, actually. When I was in college, I had a Benge 90B that was a solid horn, but had ungodly heavy pistons. The support/ventilation disk in the bottom was horrendously thick, and I asked a question about having them milled down on TH, in order to improve the valve action (something I readily do now with instruments, over 10 years later). The answers I got were predominantly "Practice technical studies more and stop worrying about gear. It's you - not the horn".
Disheartened, I ended up selling the horn, and eventually stopped posting due to the trend of receiving responses like that. I learned that it, in fact, wasn't me. I wasn't imagining the slow rebound, and furthermore, I'd continue drawing my own conclusions based on the actual science/physics involved.
Quote: | So you see, there's much more to quick valve action than just changing spring tension. |
You're right. I do enjoy the weight proportionality of the valves to the rest of the horn, however, which is why I'm looking into springs. I've been perusing through some industrial spring manufacturers' catalogs, looking for a size that would (1) fit, and (2) offer the action I'm looking for. The downside, is that the springs seem to be $6-8 each, unless I buy 10,000 of them. And I get it - they usually ship these things by the bushel, and it's the "I'm not in the ________ manufacturing industry" tax, but I see myself probably spending $100 on springs, in order to test different weights. _________________ Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:48 am Post subject: |
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The irony is that your 90B had King springs, which are among the heaviest in the industry, but it still wasn't enough to give good action!
Action is also influenced by the pad material, whether felt, or cork, or synthetic, as others have said. Once you find the spring you like, try messing around with different types of pads.
On my old Benges, light springs and synthetic pads are ideal, but on my Schilke synthetic feels "clunky", and I went back to cork and felt, which feels great.
Good Luck. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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blasticore Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 3045 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:17 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | The irony is that your 90B had King springs, which are among the heaviest in the industry, but it still wasn't enough to give good action!
Action is also influenced by the pad material, whether felt, or cork, or synthetic, as others have said. Once you find the spring you like, try messing around with different types of pads.
On my old Benges, light springs and synthetic pads are ideal, but on my Schilke synthetic feels "clunky", and I went back to cork and felt, which feels great.
Good Luck. |
I align all my horns' valves, and use solid, stable pad materials. All my pistons are lapped to fit, and I use varying weights of synthetic oil to accommodate compression and lubrication.
The problem with using material that's too hard in place of felts, is on the rebound, bounce can be a deterring factor (especially with light springs, and it can cause excessive noise if the density is too high. In a perfect world, we'd had pads as hard as tungsten, but as quiet as memory foam in outer space, but the compromise is one that there's a lot of research in, with anyone who does valve alignments.
For reference, I'm a repair technician, in addition to playing in theme parks. When I'm not troubleshooting key issues on oboes, taking dents out of trombone slides, or or taking apart an entire french horn to rebuild it without bracing stress; I'm tweaking the weight proportionality of an equipment cart to take tight corners easier, or welding an amp lift back together.
Fun addition: I'm refurbishing a King 2B trombone made in 1950 right now. _________________ Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, King trombone slides, the standard of the industry. However, the older they are, the more probability of needing inner slide replacement for the best action. The Slide Doctor told me some years ago that the slides being made in Eastlake, OH are as good, if not better, as any in the past.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Last edited by yourbrass on Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:29 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | Yes, King trombone slides, the standard of the industry. However, the older they are, the more probability of needing inner slide replacement for the best action. The Slide Doctor told me some years ago that the slides being made in Eastlake, OH are as good, if not better, as any in the past.
-Lionel |
Amen to that Lionel! Eastlake Conn and King trombone slides are among the finest. With exception of drawn exterior sleeves and inner slide stockings the King components fit vintage trombones perfectly, but the end crook guard is made lighter on the modern King. It's easy enough to salvage and transfer the larger guard from the original crook when installing a replacement end crook due to damage or red rot.
My 2 cents. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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BraeGrimes Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 269 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | Often people want harder springs thinking they will make the valve action feel crisper. On most makes, the stock springs are just fine and are nicely balanced. |
100% agree. Though I think 'heavier' springs can have some benefits, they rarely improve the feel of a horn. Also, lighter springs can sometimes create a 'bounce' in the valve; something to watch out for. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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BraeGrimes wrote: | JoeLoeffler wrote: | Often people want harder springs thinking they will make the valve action feel crisper. On most makes, the stock springs are just fine and are nicely balanced. |
100% agree. Though I think 'heavier' springs can have some benefits, they rarely improve the feel of a horn. Also, lighter springs can sometimes create a 'bounce' in the valve; something to watch out for. |
At the end of the day if the person who owns the horn prefers heavier springs then they are what the horn should have. (at least until they change their mind)
There is a reason why we have so many different models of trumpets. It is because there is not a one size pleases all solution. |
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Steve Hollahan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 519 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: Valve springs |
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Many years ago, my trumpet teacher, Joseph Valenti, taught me how to increase and decrease valve springs. Slight pulss lengthening the spring one by one increases valve spring action. Decreasing by rubbing spring between thumb and forefinger decreases spring pressure.
Lightening 3rd valve spring and strengthening 2nd valve also balances action for better feel on valves. I still do this today on horns I repair.
Also, Schilke trumpets use to have 2 sets of valve springs. One slightly heavier than the other. Check on line to see if a different spring is still available. _________________ Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com |
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