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HONESTLY - yamaha 4335g or xeno 8335?


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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:43 am    Post subject: HONESTLY - yamaha 4335g or xeno 8335? Reply with quote

Hey! this is my first post, as normally i find all the info i want on this forum somewhere because someone has posted something , but with this i couldn't find definitive info/ answers so here goes - I have recently aquired a yamaha xeno in a trade, standard set up, 8335 model number - it's in yellow brass

i also own, (my old student horn) a yamaha 4335g and when i play the two together I really struggle to feel any major differnces between the two horns - normally I am very able to discern clear differences between horns when i'm playing them but these two REALLY do seem very very close by comparison in all qualities, yes they sound a bit different but i wouldn't say either one sounds "inferior" or anything, and in terms of slotting, projection, there are aspects where the xeno is on top but also aspects where i think the 4335g has the edge, and the valves on the 4335 are amazing, it's crazy!

so a few questions - 1) does anyone else have experience playing between these 2 horns? have you noticed anything similar?

2)how do any of you/us/yamaha justify/understand the resoning for the xenos much much higher price tag, or similarly the 8335g's status as a "student horn" ?

and finally - the big question, i'm finding myself more and more tempted to simply move the xeno on and use the proceeds to improve on my old "student horn", m/k slides etc. ( there is what looks to be a tiny bit of red rot on the tuning slide which after a recent service i've been assured by the tech is not a worry so i guess if i replace that slide all is well?) does this seem like a ludicrous or fruitful plan? (obviously we never actually know until we do it and "the chops have the last word" since playing it is the only way to know BUT i'd appreciate conjecture, speculation and thoughts from anyone who has ever modded a horn in this way to improve - is it likely or even possible for such a process to produce gains in quality? seems both a no brainer and v risky in my mind but i've never done this before!

sidenote - for what it's worth the 4335g is a little heavier than the xeno and has a rose brass bell, it's about 12 years old at this point, i'm fairly sure both horns have the same valves so it could just be that they've been extensively played in on the 4335g - anyway thanks massively for any feedback, thoughts, advice or similar stories -
'mon the group!!!!! i've learnt tonnes from reading through other people's posts on here so I really appreciate the community of knowledgable people and players who share that knowledge that is this forum - thanks guys and gals
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OndraJ
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 4335G is made in China. Everything beyond (5335, 6335, 8335...) is made in Japan.
If you like the 4335, go for it and spend the money in lessons (or woman, or mouthpieces
Worth a try is the 5335G, it's made in Japan, has the valves of the 6335 and the bell of the 4335G. Many goldbrass parts.
I have never played or seen a "tuned" 4335G horn.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play the horn that works for you. Don't let anyone tell you there is anything "wrong" with your horn just because it starts with the number 4, or is not prestigious enough, or whatever.

It sounds like the 8335 is not doing anything special for you. So move on. Don't stop experimenting because trust me, you never know when you will have that next "ah-ha, this is amazing" moment when you will switch to what's next. But don't switch because others claim a horn is "better", switch only because you find that it IS better (for you).

Since I am originally a euphonium player, I'll cite an example from that world. The big competition for tuba and euphonium players each year is named in honor of Leonard Falcone. He did not play a Besson, or Willson, or Hirsbrunner. Rather, he played a Conn 22i - a detachable bell front valve front horn that looked remarkably like all those other Conn bell-fronts that filled middle school band rooms and high school marching bands for the second half of the 20th century. The finest players in the world, on horns that cost more than I could sell my car for, are still trying to rise to his level of performance.

Yes, the way a horn is built and the characteristics of it certainly matter, but after basic quality, how they matter is in how they relate to you the player. At the end of the day, anyone impressed by the horn you are holding instead of the sound coming out of it has a problem.

And by the way, the trumpet I use on a daily basis to relax after work (and have performed on many times) is 92 years old. 12 years is nothing.
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www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20


Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OndraJ wrote:
The 4335G is made in China. Everything beyond (5335, 6335, 8335...) is made in Japan.
If you like the 4335, go for it and spend the money in lessons (or woman, or mouthpieces
Worth a try is the 5335G, it's made in Japan, has the valves of the 6335 and the bell of the 4335G. Many goldbrass parts.
I have never played or seen a "tuned" 4335G horn.


the 4335g is in fact a japan made horn! at least my one is ( it says so on the valve block) yet another thing that makes me wonder if it's a bit of a gem

lessons yesyes indeed, i still get 'em every now and then, mouthpiece forsure would be another thing i would upgrade, any thoughts on upgrading tubes/pipes/slides? sorry for the inquisition, and of course nae bother if thats not something you have much to say about - i've just never modded a horn before and wonder about it, i mean if people do it surely it must be somethign that CAN work ( whether or not it would in my position i guess is the million dollar question)
thanks for the response!
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph

thanks, i feel similarly, it just strokes me as super odd that i may be holding essentially the same horn in both hands but one costs less than half the price of the other, the next logical extension is a) maybe the upgrades i could make to my student horn (i hate calling it that haha) with the money i could make from my xeno could leave me with a really great horn - or am i inviting hassle into my life? I play and work every day on my abilities and theory knowledge and course there's no substitute for that but i can't help but think if i had a spare grand to inject into this horn it could be a huge step up in quality of instrument from something that is already giving me an awful lot arguably on apar with the xeno- again super sorry for the many questions! just totally trying to feed off the knowledge of you lot!! massive thanks for the repsonse though, i totally hear you on the "badge/ brand name" thing!
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't bother modifying it. If you like it, probably best to play it like it is. Customizing any aspect of the trumpet might detract from qualities you already like.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: HONESTLY - yamaha 4335g or xeno 8335? Reply with quote

amymustijujitsumyma wrote:
... i'd appreciate conjecture, speculation and thoughts from anyone who has ever modded a horn in this way to improve - is it likely or even possible for such a process to produce gains in quality? seems both a no brainer and v risky in my mind but i've never done this before! ...

------------------------------------------------
Throwing on 'mods' with the hope they will make an improvement isn't the best approach. I suggest first identify aspects of the horn that you consider weak, or in need of improvement. Then determine whether there is a proven, or very likely, way to achieve the desired result. In some situations, it's better to find a different horn that already works as you want, rather than attempting mods.

Why your 4335 seems so similar to the 8335 is likely just 'luck'. Perhaps all the parts on the 4335 just happened to be the ideal match for each other. And maybe the workers who made it were the highest skilled, and weren't rushed.

Jay
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan
I hearya, precisely my worry also... do you think perhaps slightly more simple mods such as a valve realignment, m/k tuning slide, ( something that can easily be undone if the result doesn't do the stuff for me) would be useful?
I deffo feel your sentiment though, changing something huge like the bell or leadpipe could be an irreversible change for better or for worse and if it was worse i'd be in a right mess... thanks for taking the time to input, really appreciate it
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes a great deal of experience trying different horns and features, and then experimenting with them in different situations (horns) and then years of detailed analysis to start to get a rudimentary sense of how individual elements interact differently with each other in different combinations to even begin to understand how to modify a horn. I hang out with some leading names in restoration, recreation, design and fabrication so that I can try to learn from them, but the more they generously share, the more I realize that I don't know.

Sure, you can always try things - but do not try anything you cannot reverse. And I would start by playing on a lot of friends' horns, go to the exhibits at ITG, etc. and play what is there. Maybe make a pilgrimage to Dillon Music. Then, spend time figuring out what the commonalities were in the experiences that stood out to you and that will give you some toe-hold on where to start trying mods.

But don't start changing things up based on internet chatter. The trumpet is far too complex a system for the generalities you find here.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tuning slide that fits naturally into the horn with no modifications would be an acceptable customization as you say because it is easy to undo.

Valve alignments are funny - there are so many reasons that logically make us think it would always improve the way a trumpet plays, but sometimes a trumpet's inherent valve misalignment contributes the familiar way your horn feels. It really is a case by case situation whether a valve alignment might improve the playability or not for you (as is the case with any customization).
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan

sure sure, i agree, it wouldn't be something i'd rush or embark on without method and specific aims of course - I suppose the mods i'm talking about are relatively simple - i had in mind a semi round tuning slide from m/k if nothing else, (perhaps m/k valve slides also) to generally improve tone, core and perhaps make the upper register a little more easyblowing/smooth - this is a description of what they are designed to achieve anyway though of course i never know what it will do for me personally for me until the money is spent and the horn is on my face -
anyway i feel like the m/k route is a route that seems to have a good track record - the overall consensus on here does seem to be pretty heavily in favour of leaving it be though so perhaps i should just heed the advice of those who've been there and done that -
thanks Mr Kaplan!!
out of interest would love to know if anyone here HAS modded a lesser horn with the aim of improving it, whether they were successful or not!! totally trying to sap as much knowledge as poss from the experience of you all -


Quote:
Why your 4335 seems so similar to the 8335 is likely just 'luck'. Perhaps all the parts on the 4335 just happened to be the ideal match for each other. And maybe the workers who made it were the highest skilled, and weren't rushed.

Lucky me i guess!!! it just fills my head with question marks that it can play so uncannilly close to my xeno! maybe it says more about the xeno than the student horn? lol

thanks again
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan wrote:
A tuning slide that fits naturally into the horn with no modifications would be an acceptable customization as you say because it is easy to undo.

Valve alignments are funny - there are so many reasons that logically make us think it would always improve the way a trumpet plays, but sometimes a trumpet's inherent valve misalignment contributes the familiar way your horn feels. It really is a case by case situation whether a valve alignment might improve the playability or not for you (as is the case with any customization).


hmm i actually hadn't considered that - i'd always thought of a valve realignment as some "must have" operation the way i see it often talked about ( guess i'm only really hearing of the success stories)thanks for enlightening me to that i totally hadn't considered it!
do you think it may even be the fact that the 4335g is older and therefore heavily "played in" whereas the xeno is really quite new that is making the 4335g seem so damn good? of course it was also my old student horn so i'm very comfortable on it - still though i've not played it for years ( it's deffo older than 12 years now ithink about it)
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try emailing Wayne Tanabe at Yamaha Atelier NYC with your questions. He knows the horns inside and out and does teeaks and mods for Yamaha Artists:

wtanabe@yamaha.com
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My suspicion would be that you're more in-sync with the 4335 than with the 8335... putting in the hours on a particular horn (or mouthpiece) will naturally make it easier to just pick up and play than an unfamiliar one.

If you like the 4335 how it is then I wouldn't bother with trying to modify it - a good horn is a good horn.... besides which, what exactly are you hoping to achieve?

Trying modifications for the hell of it might be fun, but the whole point of modification (of anything) is to take something and change it in a particular direction you want/need - if you don't particularly want/need a specific change then any modifications are going to be (by definition!!) aimless.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan wrote:
A tuning slide that fits naturally into the horn with no modifications would be an acceptable customization


A new slide could be a fun thing... just pop it in/out, switch back and forth... whatever feels good on that day and you're not permanently changing anything!

Jon Kaplan wrote:

Valve alignments are funny - It really is a case by case situation


I'm in this camp... You're loving the valves now so I wouldn't touch it... you'd be 'rolling the dice'! This falls under... 'If it works, don't fix it!'.
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
Try emailing Wayne Tanabe at Yamaha Atelier NYC with your questions. He knows the horns inside and out and does teeaks and mods for Yamaha Artists:

wtanabe@yamaha.com



ohhhhhhshoooot nice one thanks!!!!! that's amazing i will do this eve!!! thanks so much friend!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan makes a very important point about valve alignments (and bear in mind that most of those are only in 1 dimension, because affecting the other requires reattaching the spring box which is major work), in that given the complexity of the system, and the role that disruptions in the wall as well as "pocket resonances" play in the "filter" part of a filter-amplifier of this type, what helps one may hurt another.

amymustijujitsumyma wrote:
i had in mind a semi round tuning slide from m/k if nothing else, (perhaps m/k valve slides also) to generally improve tone, core and perhaps make the upper register a little more easyblowing/smooth - this is a description of what they are designed to achieve anyway though of course i never know what it will do for me personally for me until the money is spent and the horn is on my face


This is what we are talking about. Don't just read a sales blurb and assume its an absolute. Yes, MK does amazing work, and I certainly would not challenge their claims as a generality. But how things interact with the specific horn and change what was there will vary from one to another.

For instance, a generality about the semi-rounded slide is that while it, and the choice of alloy, do those things, it also changes the Bach style feedback you are getting from the current dual radius slide (and leadpipe interaction) which affects how you feel pitch center (this is a trade-off with the reduced resistance in this particular case) So, you would change not one, but two key characteristics of how the horn feels to you. Some people really depend on that Bach/Holton feel, while others hate it.

Personally, I have gravitated over time to the semi-rounded myself on most of what I play, as a good compromise between security and flexibility and also because for me, classic Bach resistance is at the limit of what I am OK with (HOWEVER, my Mt. Vernon, with a traditional square slide, balances this with lighter construction and thus less mass damping of energies that also play into perceived total resistance - I point this out to emphasize again how its the system as a whole that makes for the playing experience)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
My suspicion would be that you're more in-sync with the 4335 than with the 8335... putting in the hours on a particular horn (or mouthpiece) will naturally make it easier to just pick up and play than an unfamiliar one.

If you like the 4335 how it is then I wouldn't bother with trying to modify it - a good horn is a good horn.... besides which, what exactly are you hoping to achieve?

Trying modifications for the hell of it might be fun, but the whole point of modification (of anything) is to take something and change it in a particular direction you want/need - if you don't particularly want/need a specific change then any modifications are going to be (by definition!!) aimless.


Thanks!
I think you may be right - hahaha well put, I totally agree, re the whole having a point- I do have aims for the modifications:
so the only main down point for the 4335g is that the top range is a little more tight and tricky to produce a good sound with ( talking around and, mostly, above the high c)
so i'd really like to open that up, have it sounding a little more "smooth" , that's the one thing i really feel the xeno has on the 4335 and i also prefer the sliightly darker tone of the 4335g(the rose brass? maybe? i don't usually put much stead in materials, but it's also a fair bit heavier)

i was originally thinking it'd be great to darken the tone of the xeno with just a rounded tuning slide, as it is a lovely horn to play, but then it struck me that the money the xeno represents could be put to greater use possibly by just making slightly more extensive slide changes on my old student horn - it's been a couple weeks of playing and thinking and reading so i just wanted to open this up to the wider, and far more knowledgable, community on here

thanks so much for the feedback
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrhappy wrote:
Jon Kaplan wrote:
A tuning slide that fits naturally into the horn with no modifications would be an acceptable customization


A new slide could be a fun thing... just pop it in/out, switch back and forth... whatever feels good on that day and you're not permanently changing anything!

Jon Kaplan wrote:

Valve alignments are funny - It really is a case by case situation


I'm in this camp... You're loving the valves now so I wouldn't touch it... you'd be 'rolling the dice'! This falls under... 'If it works, don't fix it!'.

mrhappy and Jon Kaplan
ok! agreed - whatever happens i will leave the valves well alone, ain't broken, shan't fix! appreciate the feedback and deffo a very good point to consider - and i guess i'm still very "pro" nw tuning slide since, beyond the spent money, there's not much to lose.. nice one!! true gents!
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amymustijujitsumyma
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph

yupyupyup- deffo agreed -
it's the classic trying to peer over the precipice thing, i guess i won't know unless i do it, at which point the money is gone and the sound is changed- that's deffo the reason i am favouring these reversible changes such as slides, and, heeding the advice from earlier, will leave the valves well alone -
but yes i'm well aware i may hatehatehate the new sound or feel!! this is the risk of which i speak , BUT you lot are all really helping whatever decision i make come from a very well prepared and well informed place so massive thanks to you all
I will do as Mr Ed Kennedy has suggested and get in touch with Mr Wayne Tanabe for some more illumination on the topic - once again thanks everyone!! super glad i've posted on here for this issue!!

what an amazing community and resource!
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