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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: Brass Band Cornet? |
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Hi all,
I performed with a British style brass band yesterday for the first time, and had a great time doing it, but I'm not sure that my instrument choice is really ideal for this application. I have a Getzen 3850 which is a nice instrument, but I was playing one of the solo parts, and it was a lot of work to try to match the brilliance and focus of the other solo players.
However, reading a bit, I see there are lots of more traditional choices - Bessons, Bach 184s (ML or L), various Yamahas, and then a whole slew of newer options like Adams and Shires.
Can anyone share some experiences about the different instruments available? |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I've played alongside players using the 3850's over here (UK) and they don't seem out of place to me...
More in keeping than Bach 184's and Schilke XA1's I've encountered by a way, though obviously caveat is these were different players.
I've never seen an Adams used in a brass band here (UK) - euphs yes, cornets no (and indeed flugels no).
There's nothing wrong with your Getzen - the style of banding can take some getting used to, I'd give it more time before considering dropping significant cash into anything different.
(I could suggest other horns, but I don't think that's necessary from what you've posted so far) |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2319 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that there is anything wrong with the Getzen.. US Brass Band tone in general is not the same as UK.. and varies from band to band..
Mouthpiece choice and your approach to playing the cornet vs trumpet will have more impact.
Typically, brass band mouthpieces are deeper, but again you've be in the same ballpark as the rest of the section.
Then practice the cornet quietly, and learn to play in the middle of the tone/blow.. if you're playing it in the same manner as your Bb trumpet then you will not get a good "cornet" result.
enjoy! _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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To be clear - I think the Getzen is a nice instrument, and I know they're used successfully for this kind of playing. Those are two of the reasons I bought it. I'm not set on replacing it, and am also experimenting with different mouthpieces to see if there's a better fit to be found.
As far as background info is concerned - I play for a living, and have been playing this cornet 5 days a week for +/- 15-20 minutes for the past six months or so, so I think I've invested a reasonable amount of time into getting a feel for it. It is a different kettle of fish playing with people though - I'm not ruling out the possibility that my sense of this is skewed by not getting the feedback I'm accustomed to, or that my perception is being affected by having a row of cornets behind me. (Suddenly, I have so much more sympathy for strings and woodwinds.)
Of course, all opinions are welcome (even the gently implied "the problem is you" ones) - I was just hoping to gather some useful information to inform my next steps. |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1530 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:49 pm Post subject: Brass band cornet |
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Hello all,
I agree that your 3850 should be just fine. We have a fellow that plays the repieno part with one, and he sounds great. If you are playing front row, see what mouthpiece the others are playing. If you are playing too dark in comparison, go a tad shallower. My opinion, is that the 3850 sounds brighter to my ear. Our front row is playing Schilke, Yamaha and Bach. I am playing a Warburton 5D or 5XD depending on what I can get away with. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I have the 3850 with a copper bell, and I've noticed that it seems darker/mellower from behind the instrument than it does out front. I didn't realize this until I heard a recording made with the mic out front. As a result, I found I had to recalibrate my ears and judgment about how bright or dark my sound really is. If your 3850 also has the copper bell, you might want to record your playing to see if the sound out front is what you think it is. If you're worried about brilliance and projection, you might find that you're in fine shape. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1466 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Brass Band Cornet? |
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Steve A wrote: | Hi all,
I performed with a British style brass band yesterday for the first time, and had a great time doing it, but I'm not sure that my instrument choice is really ideal for this application. I have a Getzen 3850 which is a nice instrument, but I was playing one of the solo parts, and it was a lot of work to try to match the brilliance and focus of the other solo players.
However, reading a bit, I see there are lots of more traditional choices - Bessons, Bach 184s (ML or L), various Yamahas, and then a whole slew of newer options like Adams and Shires.
Can anyone share some experiences about the different instruments available? |
Playing in a brassband, on a Getzen 3850 which by the way replaced an Eterna I find it a very fine horn; it´s notably "darker" (=not that edgy/rounder/more muffled) than the Eterna. Perhaps a bit sensitive to mouthpieces - it should preferable be played upon a deeper mpc - in order to get that velvet round singing sound. Personally I´m unable to use Wick no letter but had the luck to find an Ultra - good for me
And then you will have to adopt the "cornetty" attitude (the opposite of lead playing) - that "agile cantabile dolce" sound. Agile as in a string section..Sorry for these comments on the sound, but...
Playing the same notes as the rest of the section - while not "standing out" requires a certain syncronization - not only to the placement of the different notes but also to the way these are played. Takes some time to develop this "heightened listening". In my opinion this is much more decisive than different brands of horns.
However - you write that you play this horn +/- 15-20 minutes a day! Since you also play for a living I suspect you also play another horn, presumably a trumpet - and I take it that you practice a lot more than these 20 minutes? Then on your trumpet? If so then I would expect some transitional problems! At least I do (but I´m an amateur) - having to adjust mentally when I switch from big band to brass band; from concert band not that difficult transition. But the cornet was conceptualized as a different animal. If the trumpet could be a Rotweiler the cornet might be a Shetland Sheepdog... Just figures of speech - I do not play trumpet like that.
Then we have the question of moutpieces playing these horns. Personally I fancy same type of rims, diameters. Making the transition from deep to more shallow might be difficult. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:13 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | I have the 3850 with a copper bell, and I've noticed that it seems darker/mellower from behind the instrument than it does out front. I didn't realize this until I heard a recording made with the mic out front. As a result, I found I had to recalibrate my ears and judgment about how bright or dark my sound really is. If your 3850 also has the copper bell, you might want to record your playing to see if the sound out front is what you think it is. If you're worried about brilliance and projection, you might find that you're in fine shape. |
This is helpful, thanks. I'll try recording it to see how the recorder and my perception line up.
Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
However - you write that you play this horn +/- 15-20 minutes a day! Since you also play for a living I suspect you also play another horn, presumably a trumpet - and I take it that you practice a lot more than these 20 minutes? Then on your trumpet? If so then I would expect some transitional problems! At least I do (but I´m an amateur) - having to adjust mentally when I switch from big band to brass band; from concert band not that difficult transition. But the cornet was conceptualized as a different animal. |
Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, naturally I play other instruments for quite a bit more than 15-20 minutes a day, and, while I don't think it's the case, I see what you mean about transition problems. It was somewhat difficult making that transition initially, but that diminished over time. Also, while it is certainly a different playing approach than on Bb trumpet, I keep my piccolo and Eb trumpet playing reasonably performance ready by spending a smaller amount of daily time than I was spending on cornet, and both of those are also significantly different playing experiences. (Piccolo especially.) To be clear, I'm not trying to say that piccolo is the same as cornet, rather that I've found that daily maintenance is sufficient stay reasonably comfortable on different instruments which vary significantly in their playing approach. It's certainly possible I'm not working with the instrument as well as I could be, but I felt reasonably comfortable playing difficult parts on it, and received good feedback from the other players, so I'm inclined to think that I was playing it fine. (Or, at least, that the ability to play a cornet wasn't a concern.) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:54 am Post subject: |
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So, what mouthpiece did you use when you played with the brass band? You mentioned "brilliance and focus", so did you think your sound was too mellow and diffused? _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:08 am Post subject: |
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As a general rule... If no-one mentions your sound, it's fine.
If it's not quite fitting in, or not projecting enough to carry your lines, to the extent that it's causing a problem you'll be told.
My honest inclination would be to leave gear faffing alone for a while, get into the genre more and then decide if you want to change something... Obviously this is just my 2c |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | So, what mouthpiece did you use when you played with the brass band? You mentioned "brilliance and focus", so did you think your sound was too mellow and diffused? |
I play Wedge mouthpieces, so I used the Wedge 1.25 Cornet cup, which I believe is based on a Wick 2B. It's also perhaps relevant that two of the other solo players were using Bach 184s (I didn't get a good look at the other player). I'm not a permanent member of the group - I was subbing for two rehearsals and a show, so there wasn't really an expectation of everyone matching instruments. I'm going to try a couple of Sparx mouthpieces and see how they feel/sound.
TKSop wrote: | As a general rule... If no-one mentions your sound, it's fine.
If it's not quite fitting in, or not projecting enough to carry your lines, to the extent that it's causing a problem you'll be told.
My honest inclination would be to leave gear faffing alone for a while, get into the genre more and then decide if you want to change something... Obviously this is just my 2c |
Fair enough - thanks for your thoughts. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: | I play Wedge mouthpieces, so I used the Wedge 1.25 Cornet cup, which I believe is based on a Wick 2B. It's also perhaps relevant that two of the other solo players were using Bach 184s (I didn't get a good look at the other player)... |
The standard yellow brass ML Bach 184 is a little brighter than the Getzen, so that may be part of it. If you were using an equivalent to a Wick 2B, then that's a big part of the disparity, too. If you sub again, try a mouthpiece that is a bit less "cornetty" if you want to match their sound better. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | I don't think that there is anything wrong with the Getzen.. US Brass Band tone in general is not the same as UK.. and varies from band to band..
Mouthpiece choice and your approach to playing the cornet vs trumpet will have more impact.
Typically, brass band mouthpieces are deeper, but again you've be in the same ballpark as the rest of the section.
Then practice the cornet quietly, and learn to play in the middle of the tone/blow.. if you're playing it in the same manner as your Bb trumpet then you will not get a good "cornet" result.
enjoy! |
+1 |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:06 am Post subject: |
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TKSop wrote: | I've played alongside players using the 3850's over here (UK) and they don't seem out of place to me...
More in keeping than Bach 184's and Schilke XA1's I've encountered by a way, though obviously caveat is these were different players.
I've never seen an Adams used in a brass band here (UK) - euphs yes, cornets no (and indeed flugels no).
There's nothing wrong with your Getzen - the style of banding can take some getting used to, I'd give it more time before considering dropping significant cash into anything different.
(I could suggest other horns, but I don't think that's necessary from what you've posted so far) |
Hi Steve A
I completely agree with TKSop.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Hi again Steve A
The Bach 184ML in my opinion has a different sound to the more common British Brass Band choices (at least in the UK) of the Besson Sovereign/Prestige and Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo (Obviously these aren't the only cornets used, but the ones I see most often). I don't think that the 184ML is brighter overall, rather that it has a more concentrated sound quality, more core if you like, and in my opinion it also articulates differently to the Sovereign and Xeno, sounding more definite/strident. My previous brass band had a matched set of Bach 184MLs, and I bought my own to match. I played in the band for 18 years, 8 years as Principal cornet. When I switched to my current brass band, I found that the Bach 184ML which has been my primary horn for 18 years, and which I knew extremely well, didn't blend very well. It wasn't so much that it sounded brighter, rather that it articulated differently and had a more concentrated sound, making me sound like I was playing a trumpet in a section of cornets.
In a concert band setting, I find the Bach 184ML to be an excellent cornet. It is trumpet-like enough for more trumpet-orientated literature, fanfares etc., cornet-like enough for vintage cornet solos, and with something like a Bach 3C, even works well for big band-style repertoire. But, I've recorded myself playing baroque trumpet literature (rather than brass band cornet literature) on both my Bach 37 trumpet and Bach 184ML cornet with a Bach 3C mouthpiece, and couldn't really tell the difference, probably because in both cases I was approaching the relevant instrument in a classical trumpet fashion (I truly believe that the greatest difference between trumpet and cornet is in approach).
In a nutshell, in my honest opinion, the Bach 184ML sounds like a warmer version of the Bach 37 trumpet sound, and darkens in a flugel direction with a deeper mouthpiece rather than in a brass band cornet direction.
I myself switched to a Yamaha Xeno, and it blends better in a section of predominantly Besson Sovereigns. Why you may ask, have I typed a fairly long post about the Bach 184ML, when you are asking about the Getzen 3850, and my answer would be that you said that two of the Solo Cornets are using a Bach 184ML. My honest opinion is that there is nothing wrong with your Getzen 3850, and the reason for the difficulty in blending is that two of the other players are playing Bach 184MLs. Obviously you are the dep, so cannot comment on their equipment choice, but it has been my experience that the Bach 184ML only works in a brass band setting, if the entire cornet section are playing them.
My suggestion of getting your Getzen to blend more easily, would be to try to match the more strident articulations of the Bach 184ML players by tonguing a little more definitely. Before I switched to my Xeno, I had to switch to a more delicate tonguing style on my Bach 184ML to stop my articulations from standing out in the section. I therefore may be wrong, but the reverse may in my opinion, help to get a more brass band-orientated cornet to blend.
I hope that some of this may help.
Please keep us updating regarding how you are getting on.
Best wishes
Lou
P.S. I've re-read your original post and you mention wanting to match the brilliance and focus of the other players. Regarding the brillance, a shallower mouthpiece may be worth trying. Regarding the focus, I do think that this is a combination of the Bach 184ML having a more concentrated sound with more definite articulations. I don't think that you can do much about the inherent sound quality of your particular cornet, but as I said previously, being more definite with your articulations may help. _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Louise,
Thanks for your thought-provoking and in-depth post. Lots to consider and digest here. I've tried a Sparx 2B in the past few days, which seems like a much better fit than what I had before, so that may turn out to be the ticket. I'll check back in to update anyone interested once I've settled on something. |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: | Hi Louise,
Thanks for your thought-provoking and in-depth post.
Hi Steve A
You are very welcome.
Lots to consider and digest here. I've tried a Sparx 2B in the past few days, which seems like a much better fit than what I had before, so that may turn out to be the ticket.
Hopefully it will turn out well for you, and be a good solution for your situation.
I'll check back in to update anyone interested once I've settled on something.
Great! It will be interesting to read about.
Take care and best wishes
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Bandcity Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2018 Posts: 16 Location: Halifax, NS Canada
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:42 pm Post subject: 3850 is fine |
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It all depends on the band. If it is a competition band then they may all play the same instruments and mouthpieces. When I first joined I went out and bought a Bach 1 1/2 because that's what I played Trumpet with. I sounded like a trumpet so was encouraged to get a Wick. That made a lot of difference. See what your bandmates play. I played B&H for 20 years but now play Getzen 3850. _________________ Tim |
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lionking Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 281 Location: Denmark, Copenhagen
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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I recently bought a brand new Schagerl Hans Gansch signature model cornet.
It's best British "short" style cornet I have played on.
Just to make my comparison credible...
The "short" style cornets I have owned:
Bach 184ML, Bach 184L, Bach 184XL, Besson Sovereign x2, York Eminence, Stomvi, Getzen Eterna, Getzen 3850 copper bell.
I have tested most other available brands. Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to try a Smith-Watkins cornet.
Looking for a cornet? Give the Schagerl a try... |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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You might want to try the mouthpiece included with 3850 in its case.
That mouthpiece is a version of Wick 4B, made in Germany for Getzen. It should sound somewhat more brilliant than 2B.
As an added bonus, Getzen mouthpiece shank will match Getzen receiver much better than recent Wick mouthpieces (made for Sovereign cornet receiver) which insert not deep enough. |
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