Brass Band Cornet?

Steve A · Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: Brass Band Cornet?

Hi all,

I performed with a British style brass band yesterday for the first time, and had a great time doing it, but I'm not sure that my instrument choice is really ideal for this application. I have a Getzen 3850 which is a nice instrument, but I was playing one of the solo parts, and it was a lot of work to try to match the brilliance and focus of the other solo players.

However, reading a bit, I see there are lots of more traditional choices - Bessons, Bach 184s (ML or L), various Yamahas, and then a whole slew of newer options like Adams and Shires.

Can anyone share some experiences about the different instruments available?

TKSop · Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:39 am Post subject:

I've played alongside players using the 3850's over here (UK) and they don't seem out of place to me...
More in keeping than Bach 184's and Schilke XA1's I've encountered by a way, though obviously caveat is these were different players.

I've never seen an Adams used in a brass band here (UK) - euphs yes, cornets no (and indeed flugels no).

There's nothing wrong with your Getzen - the style of banding can take some getting used to, I'd give it more time before considering dropping significant cash into anything different.

(I could suggest other horns, but I don't think that's necessary from what you've posted so far)

zaferis · Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject:

I don't think that there is anything wrong with the Getzen.. US Brass Band tone in general is not the same as UK.. and varies from band to band..

Mouthpiece choice and your approach to playing the cornet vs trumpet will have more impact.

Typically, brass band mouthpieces are deeper, but again you've be in the same ballpark as the rest of the section.
Then practice the cornet quietly, and learn to play in the middle of the tone/blow.. if you're playing it in the same manner as your Bb trumpet then you will not get a good "cornet" result.

enjoy!
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

Steve A · Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject:

To be clear - I think the Getzen is a nice instrument, and I know they're used successfully for this kind of playing. Those are two of the reasons I bought it.

I'm not set on replacing it, and am also experimenting with different mouthpieces to see if there's a better fit to be found.

As far as background info is concerned - I play for a living, and have been playing this cornet 5 days a week for +/- 15-20 minutes for the past six months or so, so I think I've invested a reasonable amount of time into getting a feel for it. It is a different kettle of fish playing with people though - I'm not ruling out the possibility that my sense of this is skewed by not getting the feedback I'm accustomed to, or that my perception is being affected by having a row of cornets behind me. (Suddenly, I have so much more sympathy for strings and woodwinds.)

Of course, all opinions are welcome (even the gently implied "the problem is you" ones) - I was just hoping to gather some useful information to inform my next steps.

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:49 pm Post subject: Brass band cornet

Hello all,
I agree that your 3850 should be just fine. We have a fellow that plays the repieno part with one, and he sounds great. If you are playing front row, see what mouthpiece the others are playing. If you are playing too dark in comparison, go a tad shallower. My opinion, is that the 3850 sounds brighter to my ear. Our front row is playing Schilke, Yamaha and Bach. I am playing a Warburton 5D or 5XD depending on what I can get away with.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

dstdenis · Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm Post subject:

I have the 3850 with a copper bell, and I've noticed that it seems darker/mellower from behind the instrument than it does out front. I didn't realize this until I heard a recording made with the mic out front. As a result, I found I had to recalibrate my ears and judgment about how bright or dark my sound really is. If your 3850 also has the copper bell, you might want to record your playing to see if the sound out front is what you think it is. If you're worried about brilliance and projection, you might find that you're in fine shape.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Brass Band Cornet?

Steve A · Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:13 am Post subject:

Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:54 am Post subject:

So, what mouthpiece did you use when you played with the brass band? You mentioned "brilliance and focus", so did you think your sound was too mellow and diffused?
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

TKSop · Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:08 am Post subject:

As a general rule... If no-one mentions your sound, it's fine.

If it's not quite fitting in, or not projecting enough to carry your lines, to the extent that it's causing a problem you'll be told.

My honest inclination would be to leave gear faffing alone for a while, get into the genre more and then decide if you want to change something... Obviously this is just my 2c

Steve A · Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:11 am Post subject:

Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject:

plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:06 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:42 am Post subject:

Hi again Steve A

The Bach 184ML in my opinion has a different sound to the more common British Brass Band choices (at least in the UK) of the Besson Sovereign/Prestige and Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo (Obviously these aren't the only cornets used, but the ones I see most often). I don't think that the 184ML is brighter overall, rather that it has a more concentrated sound quality, more core if you like, and in my opinion it also articulates differently to the Sovereign and Xeno, sounding more definite/strident. My previous brass band had a matched set of Bach 184MLs, and I bought my own to match. I played in the band for 18 years, 8 years as Principal cornet. When I switched to my current brass band, I found that the Bach 184ML which has been my primary horn for 18 years, and which I knew extremely well, didn't blend very well. It wasn't so much that it sounded brighter, rather that it articulated differently and had a more concentrated sound, making me sound like I was playing a trumpet in a section of cornets.

In a concert band setting, I find the Bach 184ML to be an excellent cornet. It is trumpet-like enough for more trumpet-orientated literature, fanfares etc., cornet-like enough for vintage cornet solos, and with something like a Bach 3C, even works well for big band-style repertoire. But, I've recorded myself playing baroque trumpet literature (rather than brass band cornet literature) on both my Bach 37 trumpet and Bach 184ML cornet with a Bach 3C mouthpiece, and couldn't really tell the difference, probably because in both cases I was approaching the relevant instrument in a classical trumpet fashion (I truly believe that the greatest difference between trumpet and cornet is in approach).

In a nutshell, in my honest opinion, the Bach 184ML sounds like a warmer version of the Bach 37 trumpet sound, and darkens in a flugel direction with a deeper mouthpiece rather than in a brass band cornet direction.

I myself switched to a Yamaha Xeno, and it blends better in a section of predominantly Besson Sovereigns. Why you may ask, have I typed a fairly long post about the Bach 184ML, when you are asking about the Getzen 3850, and my answer would be that you said that two of the Solo Cornets are using a Bach 184ML. My honest opinion is that there is nothing wrong with your Getzen 3850, and the reason for the difficulty in blending is that two of the other players are playing Bach 184MLs. Obviously you are the dep, so cannot comment on their equipment choice, but it has been my experience that the Bach 184ML only works in a brass band setting, if the entire cornet section are playing them.

My suggestion of getting your Getzen to blend more easily, would be to try to match the more strident articulations of the Bach 184ML players by tonguing a little more definitely. Before I switched to my Xeno, I had to switch to a more delicate tonguing style on my Bach 184ML to stop my articulations from standing out in the section. I therefore may be wrong, but the reverse may in my opinion, help to get a more brass band-orientated cornet to blend.

I hope that some of this may help.

Please keep us updating regarding how you are getting on.

Best wishes

Lou

P.S. I've re-read your original post and you mention wanting to match the brilliance and focus of the other players. Regarding the brillance, a shallower mouthpiece may be worth trying. Regarding the focus, I do think that this is a combination of the Bach 184ML having a more concentrated sound with more definite articulations. I don't think that you can do much about the inherent sound quality of your particular cornet, but as I said previously, being more definite with your articulations may help.
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Steve A · Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:30 pm Post subject:

Hi Louise,

Thanks for your thought-provoking and in-depth post. Lots to consider and digest here. I've tried a Sparx 2B in the past few days, which seems like a much better fit than what I had before, so that may turn out to be the ticket. I'll check back in to update anyone interested once I've settled on something.

Louise Finch · Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:47 am Post subject:

Bandcity · Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:42 pm Post subject: 3850 is fine

It all depends on the band. If it is a competition band then they may all play the same instruments and mouthpieces. When I first joined I went out and bought a Bach 1 1/2 because that's what I played Trumpet with. I sounded like a trumpet so was encouraged to get a Wick. That made a lot of difference. See what your bandmates play. I played B&H for 20 years but now play Getzen 3850.
_________________
Tim

lionking · Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:26 pm Post subject:

I recently bought a brand new Schagerl Hans Gansch signature model cornet.
It's best British "short" style cornet I have played on.

Just to make my comparison credible...
The "short" style cornets I have owned:

Bach 184ML, Bach 184L, Bach 184XL, Besson Sovereign x2, York Eminence, Stomvi, Getzen Eterna, Getzen 3850 copper bell.

I have tested most other available brands. Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to try a Smith-Watkins cornet.

Looking for a cornet? Give the Schagerl a try...

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177

You might want to try the mouthpiece included with 3850 in its case.

That mouthpiece is a version of Wick 4B, made in Germany for Getzen. It should sound somewhat more brilliant than 2B.

As an added bonus, Getzen mouthpiece shank will match Getzen receiver much better than recent Wick mouthpieces (made for Sovereign cornet receiver) which insert not deep enough.