Keep progressing on my 11B4 or switch to 3C ?

[sioul]

Hello Trumpet Players ,

Sorry for a recurrent question on mouthpieces.....
I hesitate between two mouthpieces a yam 11B4 and a bach 3C,

I play with a yam 11B4 that came with my yam 4335. I feel rather comfortable with it but I prefer the sound of the 3C. I reach high C on both but I articulate more precisely on 11B4 and have better control on it , I am less at ease on the 3C. For example playing (badly) "Stella by starlight" I have more difficulties on the bridge with the 3C. I am also very anxious on my volume, thinking that 3C will help me on this, but maybe it is erroneous.

I have also tried a bach 6C but it is dull for me , and also a bach 1 1/2C too difficult.

So here is my question: must I continue and progress with my 11B4 and then later switch to 3C or should I switch to 3C the soonest.??


I am 55, I have been playing for 11 months , self taught for now and i will play mostly jazz in small ensemble.

Thanks a lot
Louis

[zaferis]

What about Yamaha 14B4 stock or GP .. close to a Bach 3C but a touch bigger than the 11B4 - and should have a similar feel .. being a bit bigger might open your tone up a bit vs the 11B4 and keep the consitent aspects of the Yamaha for you.

IMO Yam's 14B4 is atop their line-up.. a well balanced/proportioned mouthpiece. An excellent all-around piece. I've had more good student results on this above Yamaha's other sizes.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[HERMOKIWI]

Your post implies that switching to a 3C is somehow an expected progression, that somehow as you gain experience you "grow into" a 3C. It's a myth. There are no expected progressions in mouthpieces. You simply use what works best for you.

There's nothing about any mouthpiece that is universally and automatically better than any other mouthpiece. For example, the 7C has long been considered the beginner's mouthpiece but, factually, many great professional trumpet players played (and still play) the 7C.

There are no magic mouthpieces and you don't switch mouthpieces to "prove" that you've advanced. In fact, switching mouthpieces doesn't "prove" anything (except, hopefully, that the new mouthpiece works better for you than the old one did).

From your description the 3C doesn't work as well for you as the 11B4. So, why would you want to switch?
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
I have been in a similar situation over the last few months, but I see you are a new player. You did not mention that you are a comeback player... Though I suspect you are. I have played a Warburton 5 series for the last many years, but I have grown into a 4MC and a Schilke Synphony M3C as of late. The M3C has a wonderful sound, but the 4MC has just a little more support of the higher register. Tone or sound is the majority of the aspect you want. As long as I don't have to play the first book in a big band, I will err on the side of tone and less edge, as long as I am blending with everybody else. I know that the Bach and the Schilke 3C's are different, but I am happy with the inner cup diameter as it fits my face pretty well. As does the Warburton 4MC. Specs say about 16.5, but, I know that specs aren't everything.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[O00Joe]

It would be worth trying a Bach 5C as well if you're looking to get a larger diameter. Otherwise, I'd say stick with the 11B4 as long as you can work with it to get closer to that sound you want.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

[digs]

11c4 May be an option to open up the sound a bit without going to a bigger diameter. I use both, but mainly the B4. I also have the 11a4 which would work well for picc, and I use a Curry 40m for commercial playing and find it to be a good match with the Yamaha 11 series.

[sioul]

[wohlrab]

Just stick to the 11b4 and practice practice practice. You'll forget about it in no time if you put in an hour everyday.

[HERMOKIWI]

[J-Walk]

If you are a jazz player and feel more at home on the 11b4, it would be a poor choice to switch, in my opinion. The 11b4 is a very efficient middle of the road piece that should assist with efficiency and a well rounded tone. For orchestral playing, it might be a bit on the small side, but for jazz it seems like a very versatile choice. Play whichever fits you the best. There is little more frustrating than trying to develop on too large or too small of a mouthpiece.
_________________
Jason Rahn
——————
Burbank Benge MLP 3X+
Adams A5
Larson Brasswerks “Reese” Model C
Schilke P5-4 picc
Courtois 154 flugel
A few mouthpieces that fit my face and horns

[sioul]

Thanks for your answers !

I will stick to my 11B4 (given as equiv. to a 7D) .
Maybe If I have the opportunity i'll experiment other yamaha such as 11C4 (equiv 7C) and 14b4 .

[Walter Bone]

Look if you already like the sound of the 3C I think you should try it more extensively and find out if the switch can work out for you.
This means playing on the 3C only for at least a couple of weeks, and see if you are capable of playing smoothly on it.
I agree it's better to stick with a MP because switching takes time, but that doesn't mean one should "freeze" on the first MP he put his lips on.

[cheiden]

[Ed Kennedy]

Jens Lindemann’s Mouthpiece Rant

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players.

So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.

The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!

Jens Lindemann

[plankowner110]

[sioul]

well well....

I have bought a 14B4 , and ... I like it ... but I am so confused on which one to choose.

With 11B4 better range , better flexibility , less volume (is this subjective ???) , tone seems narrower.
With 14B4 rounder , better volume and resonance, but a bit uneasy (seal is harder to achieve). Less precision.
This volume problem is really a concern for me as in the small gig where i go I have diffilculties to hear myself.


And to add to the confusion on some pieces I am easier on 11B4 and on some other easier on the 14B4 . And on some I prefer the tone the 11B4 on other the tone of the 14B4 . Therefore I switch and switch again , which I guess is a very bad thing....

Why does it have to be so difficult ??

[delano]

Being 55, self taught, with a useable high C and playing gigs after 11 months on the trumpet?
You must be a miracle and nobody can advise you, you are an elderly prodigy child.
But as a general rule it's better to stay away from mouthpiece changes only for the idea. When it's time for another mp you will know.

[JayKosta]

[sioul]

[TrumpetMD]