"I really feel sorry for the women described in this thread. Read the comments users leave on their youtube videos and witness threads like this one--I don't know how they hang on. I'm going to tell my daughter to stick with piano...[/quote]"
Or better yet, tell her to play the trumpet so that we can balance out all the testosterone....
I love the intention of bringing more competent female players into light. I do feel frustration when I hear people asking for "the best female jazz player" If we had said "who is the best male jazz player," it would just be an impossible question. The best lead? Or solo? Or big band section player? Or new/progressive jazz soloist? How can you just pick one "jazz" best in such a broad genre? I think a list would be helpful, maybe not an "in this order" type of list. Just as one would be great with male players. A list that could bring lesser known but great players into light. I learned of some new players reading some of your posts, so thanks for that!
Best,
Jen
As I've read the posts here I wonder, in retrospect, if it was an error to use the word "best" in the title of the thread, although I'm not certain what I would have substituted for that word. Certainly my intent was to solicit opinions and add to my knowledge beyond the list of better known female jazz trumpet players.
In terms of seeing new names and increasing my knowledge this thread has been very informative. I'm going to listen to every one of the players mentioned.
Evaluating jazz and jazz artists is inherently very subjective due to the wide variations in approaches to the music in terms of selection, interpretation, style, technique, etc. In some areas of music, particularly involving interpretation of foundational classical works, there is a recognized standard of performance but in jazz music there can be as many recognized standards of performance of a single song as there are interpretations of that song. So, I acknowledge that "best" is highly subjective and very taste sensitive. That's one reason I requested an explanation of why anyone responding thought this, that or some other player was "best" in their opinion, so that I could classify the responses by individual taste.
In terms of critiquing players and expressing opinions influenced to some extent by personal bias and personal taste, I do think that anyone releasing recordings is fair game for the expression of such opinions and should have a reasonable expectation that such opinions are going to be expressed. I do not draw a distinction in that regard between male and female artists.
Most artists do want to please their target audience. Some of the most valuable lessons an artist can learn to refine their performance in ways pleasing to their audience can come through the process of the audience expressing their opinions. Jazz is an art form that is, or should be, always evolving even with a singular artist.
We all want to get "better," however we define that term. However, because of the tremendous diversity in jazz music, it is unrealistic to think that any artist can please everyone all of the time. Variety is the spice of life and, certainly, one of the primary hallmarks of jazz music.
A serious problem is determining where the expression of an honest subjective opinion ends and mean spirited bashing begins. It depends a lot on the sensitivity of the individual making, observing or being the topic of such commentary. To one person a certain comment is well within the bounds of reason and civility. To another person the same comment is like a declaration of war.
I try to lean toward objectivity in commenting about a player's interpretation, style and technique. I'm naturally more subjective as to selection and sound, I have my preferences just as we all do. That being said, my primary interest in starting this thread was to gather names, especially less well known names, and to gather opinions, to give me a broader basis to research the topic. Part of that research is to try to evaluate which artist(s) will provide the most valuable experience to the students I'm trying to support financially. That artist is not necessarily the one I personally like the best. That artist will be the one who is the best fit with our jazz studies program and its objectives for the students.
I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. If there are additional suggestions I'm happy to have them. I have a lot of listening to do. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:07 pm Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
Is that Christine on sax?
Saw her in Italy a couple of times, off and on, a decade or so ago.
Yep. She's a brilliant big band writer as well (Christine)! _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9000 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:24 pm Post subject:
[quote="PH"]
kehaulani wrote:
She's a brilliant big band writer as well (Christine)!
The last time we spoke, I got a tune from her to arrange for big band. Kind of reversing the tables. Excellent big band work (her not me). Actually, I think writing is her stronger suite. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:35 pm Post subject:
One thing that makes the task difficult is a musician putting out recordings that are quite different from their live shows.
I went to my first Chris Botti concert basically because my wife wanted to go, and the concert was in a truly great sounding venue. I was not a fan of his recordings. While the vocalists he tours with make the show a bit more audience friendly, Chris Botti plays the fire out of the trumpet live, WAY more than you hear on his records.
I came away with the same feeling about Brea Skonberg. To hear some of her recordings, you'd think that Diana Krall had taken up the trumpet. When I saw Brea live, she was admittedly not doing her own show, but was part of the Monterrey Jazz Festival on Tour band, but she played trumpet in a much more complex and impressive manner than anything I've heard her do on her own recordings - similar to Chris Botti - and she barely sang at all.
Please don't think I'm comparing the styles of Chris Botti and Brea Skonberg. I am comparing what appears to be their marketing strategy, not their music.
I suspect that you have to live in a major city to be able to see live shows of the musicians mentioned on this thread, and the rest of us are left with recordings. When the recordings and the live shows are two different things, it creates some confusion, to say the least.
This thread has introduced me to some trumpet players I was not previously familiar with. I'll be checking out their recordings and hoping some of them will tour within driving distance. It's clear to me that we cannot always use their recordings to predict how much we're going to enjoy their live shows.
Without having to wade through every clip of Ingrid, if can someone point out a 'standard' that they have heard, without harmon mute preferably or a Miles influenced modal approach. Seems like that area is largely avoided in the recordings, and you have to wonder why.
She deserves credit for knowing about progressions, but too many are confused into thinking that this suddenly makes you a great or even good player. It's conceivable that she has performed well on a tune like 'Joy Spring' for ex. That would convert a lot of folks, one like that.
I'm sure she could do standards but it doesn't seem that's her thing. I don't think she's trying to convert anyone. I gather she's been successful with an audience that likes what she does.
Not a standard but check out her ride starting about 2:55 in this video. Great sound, technical agility, chops and accuracy Miles wished he'd had. Personally I hear a real solid player with a mastery of the workings of jazz.
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:42 am Post subject:
And I've gigged with the bass trombonist. Lesley Havens is one of the finest I've had the pleasure of playing along side. And she's a longtime repeat Osmun client to boot. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject:
I’m pretty sure this is a waste of time, but I am quite sure that 100 percent of all people who know at least a little bit about jazz agree with me. Ingrid Jensen is a major jazz player with all the right cred _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com www.youtube.com/lipshurt
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9000 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:12 am Post subject:
This is an aside, but here's Ingrid in a "rock" context.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5iPzHrVZlU _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 316 Location: Traverse City, MI
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:23 am Post subject:
Quote:
I’m pretty sure this is a waste of time, but I am quite sure that 100 percent of all people who know at least a little bit about jazz agree with me. Ingrid Jensen is a major jazz player with all the right cred
Yes! _________________ Bill
Bb Burbank Benge L
Bb Schilke B1
Olds Silverstar Flugel
King Silvertone Cornet
There is no question in my mind that Ingrid is a major player with a very sophisticated approach and an extremely large jazz vocabulary. She is, no doubt, confusing to people strongly attached to strictly melodic playing. There are a lot of people like that, probably the majority of listeners. I can understand that in their lack of experience and understanding they would find her playing quite random/disjointed/unconnected. It can be difficult to understand because it is very sophisticated and more angular/cutting edge than most people are used to hearing. It helps a lot to understand the complications of playing the instrument and the complications of expressing sequential ideas. The more a person understands these factors the more they will appreciate the skill displayed by Ingrid.
I admit that I'm not a fan of her type of interpretation. However, I've been at this long enough to understand, appreciate and marvel at what she does. It is much less random than what the average listener may think. She has very specific patterns she uses here and there (Clark Terry, Clifford Brown and other great jazz artists had very specific patterns they used, too) and a whole concept as she approaches what she does. Ingrid is a legitimately great player regardless of whether her interpretations appeal to me or to other listeners. It's very difficult technically to do what she does.
I feel the same way about Clay Jenkins, who I mentioned earlier in this thread. Like Ingrid, Clay is an absolutely amazing player in the "How did he think of that?" way. It's mind boggling for me to listen to it because I couldn't come even close to reproducing it. My personal fluency is melodic, not angular. I don't hear the music the way Ingrid and Clay hear the music, which makes it even more amazing to me that they do what they do.
Great players come in many forms. The more you know about the instrument and the whole concept of jazz music the easier it is to identify great players. Whether or not you personally like what they play is not particularly relevant to that determination/observation. _________________ HERMOKIWI
There is no question in my mind that Ingrid is a major player with a very sophisticated approach and an extremely large jazz vocabulary. She is, no doubt, confusing to people strongly attached to strictly melodic playing. There are a lot of people like that, probably the majority of listeners. I can understand that in their lack of experience and understanding they would find her playing quite random/disjointed/unconnected. It can be difficult to understand because it is very sophisticated and more angular/cutting edge than most people are used to hearing. It helps a lot to understand the complications of playing the instrument and the complications of expressing sequential ideas. The more a person understands these factors the more they will appreciate the skill displayed by Ingrid.
I think some are attributing 'sophistication' and large vocabularies to the notion of how advanced it sounds to listeners when they come in contact with more angular/cutting edge sounds than what most people are used to hearing. This is not to say they aren't interesting, they are. But if that approach is used exclusively, what happens is that the player avoids anything having much to do with melodic expressions..and not something they need worry about again. Worse still is that it can take on a life of it's own, where a following can be had, with an audience that couldn't care less, and adores them regardless.
Whether it's Miles, Wallace Roney or whoever, the flip side to featuring 99 % harmonic ideas, steering clear of the other, is the risk of proliferating a one dimensional expression or yawnfest to a degree, akin to what was termed 'muzak' in the 70's for the desire to soothe audiences with a brand of valium in the listener.
JMO, but who wants to be mentally soothed -- even in an intelligent way -- consistently. It's nice once in a while, but not all day everyday...24/7. In other words, even if it seems completely out of place, come back (on occasion) with a melodic idea. Not often, but perhaps 5 % of the time.
Last edited by rothman on Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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