• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Is a $280 New Bach Stradivarius Trumpet too good to be true?


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
austincustombrass
Veteran Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
PDXbugler wrote:
About two weeks ago, I sent a message for sh*ts and giggles to a fleabay seller asking them to confirm it's authentic and received the following response:

Hi friends
This is made in taiwan, our company have this qualification to produce it
Thanks again
but it's haven't paid any tax to our country ,
We are a honest seller please don't worried about it ,
our country don't think this is the original one.
Best regards
Sunny



This is interesting... Taiwan makes good trumpets and I'm pretty sure they're (one of....) the place where the tr500 is made. The other Trent (Hamilton) had a review of one of these and gave it an "okay" review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQuKGQlFG2Y

I wonder if the person who brought it into Trent Austin felt scammed by it...


A bit more follow-up info from Trent:

The customer was pretty upset for sure (not at us of course) and we ended up trading the horn for a used horn in the shop. This was before my time at the shop. We found it in our warehouse a few days ago while doing inventory and Trent was so upset at the fake at it he wanted to do that video.

Hope this helps a bit!

Kyle
_________________
As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.

It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.

Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Irving
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1884

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What really amazes me is how good Trent sounds playing the fake Bach. I hope that nobody goes out and buys one of these, since it might only last a matter of months before something goes wrong with it. Of course, a fake Bach comes with no guarantee, since you don't even know who made it, which means, sold as is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2579

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
What really amazes me is how good Trent sounds playing the fake Bach.

Clearly because it isn't that bad an instrument. He says himself in the video that it doesn't play poorly.

But you can't tell anything meaningful about the sound from that video, it's not a proper recording environment. Do a high quality recording and not tell anyone what it is, my hunch is no one is going to complain about the sound.

He makes negative commentary about the valves but his demonstration of them would seem to contradict that. I gather the horn has had next to no mileage on it and the valves haven't been truly broken in and he doesn't say that he oiled them. Nonetheless they clearly respond okay when he's playing it.

For $280 - around $200 or less if you get it on Ali Express - I'd say they got a reasonable instrument for the money.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2411
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting video. It's always good to hear from Trent.

From the video, it looks like it says "Model 43" on the bell, not "Model 143" as Trent said. But regardless, it's not something we'd call a "Bach Stradivarius".

Has the Bach Corporation ever commented on this issue? Does Bach ever license its name to companies making horns in limited markets? For example, I remember past threads about "Vincent Bach International" located in the UK.

I realize that Trent's video raises two issues ... (1) fake trumpets and (2) cheap trumpets. FWIW, I think there's a place for inexpensive trumpets that are functional, although maybe not as durable, but which provide a low-risk option for people who are unsure if they (or their child) will continue playing.

I'm not saying this horn fits the bill. And I agree that the best way to do this is to find a trustworthy dealer.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.


Last edited by TrumpetMD on Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
why would Bach (Selmer) or anyone else clone one of their established high quality horns and label it a Stradivarius?

Strictly speaking Bach clones their horns every day - they're real Bachs because it's done under the auspices of Bach.

Obviously the manufacturer in China is doing it.


So Bach clones their Strads, labels them Strads and sells them to resellers for a fraction of current pricing?

I would be very surprised if that’s correct.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Irving wrote:
What really amazes me is how good Trent sounds playing the fake Bach.

Clearly because it isn't that bad an instrument. He says himself in the video that it doesn't play poorly.

But you can't tell anything meaningful about the sound from that video, it's not a proper recording environment. Do a high quality recording and not tell anyone what it is, my hunch is no one is going to complain about the sound.

He makes negative commentary about the valves but his demonstration of them would seem to contradict that. I gather the horn has had next to no mileage on it and the valves haven't been truly broken in and he doesn't say that he oiled them. Nonetheless they clearly respond okay when he's playing it.

For $280 - around $200 or less if you get it on Ali Express - I'd say they got a reasonable instrument for the money.


Seriously??
“Clearly because” Trent is a great player. You really believe that an outstanding player can’t sound good on a very low quality horn? And because you can’t actually see valves sticking or rebounding sluggishly on a video means zip.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Heim
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish that he wouldn't play so many notes. It is easier to hear intonation and control by playing deliberately with tonguing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Heim
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
"

The TR500 is Chinese made,


Now that is generally a terrible horn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2579

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Irving wrote:
What really amazes me is how good Trent sounds playing the fake Bach.

Clearly because it isn't that bad an instrument. He says himself in the video that it doesn't play poorly.


Seriously??
“Clearly because” Trent is a great player. You really believe that an outstanding player can’t sound good on a very low quality horn?

I think he can sound good on a horn that's capable of sounding good. He's a good player, he doesn't have magic powers that will allow him to sound good on a horn that's not capable of sounding good. I don't think you can tell anything meaningful about sound from the specific video he posted other than yes, it will play notes. If it were an expensive horn I suspect you wouldn't regard it as a valid way to demonstrate what it sounded like.

Can a really good player turn a sow's ear into a silk purse? Alison Balsom plays better than you, me, Trent and anyone on this forum and is known for her phenomenal, pristine tone.

As a test of this notion, judging on the continuum of what's possible regarding trumpet sound, do you think the sound she achieves with the horn in this video could be described as good? They've clearly got different gear in place to hear her talk than to record her playing given the clamping down of the background noise. Would you be satisfied with that sound on a concert stage?


Link

_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grune
Regular Member


Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caveat emptor is a basic fact of life.

For the record:
As a "hobby", I visit and tour China frequently, visit the factories, and attend the famous, huge music exhibition in Shanghai. This expo brings manufacturers, dealers, and musicians from around all of China and the world: to name a few brands... real Stradivarius violins, Steinway pianos, trumpets Bach, Yamaha, etc, etc. My time spans +10 years.

For trumpets, Chinese manufacturers can be placed generally into 2 categories: those who are 100% local; and those who are either JVs or under bona-fide OEM contracts [such as those producing for/with Yamaha, Bach, others]. For the JV/OEM products, yes, these carry the approved brand label, AND, they are distributed via proven/legal channels, only. For the local producers, yes, they will state their products are "like a Bach", but they will also state "not the real Bach". These local manufacturers sell/distro under their own brands: eg Lark, Jinying, others.

I have NEVER seen a local product leave a factory under a fake brand, but I have seen products leave entirely bare of any labelling. True, I have seen fake labelled Bach's sold in the "grey markets" in China, and online. I have discussed this issue with factories: the reply is the fake branding is done by third parties AFTER the horns leave the factory.

How these fake horns come to the USA is anybody's guess. Personal carry-on is one means. If imported in bulk as fakes, why is Customs allowing them to pass? If imported as unbranded horns [to pass Customs], then obviously the labels are added after importation.

Why is this occurring? Profits and consumers. Consumers want low prices: this is a basic fact of life. But consider: I see a "student model" branded Jean Paul selling retail online for $250. Certain retailers tell me such horns sell briskly. That SAME horn retails in China for only $70. The $180 spread does not go to the manufacturer.

People are free to judge for themselves what you get for what you pay, and to whom.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius, 180S37 (Silver Model 37 Bb), ML75618, purchased new in 1972.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grune wrote:
...
I have NEVER seen a local product leave a factory under a fake brand, but I have seen products leave entirely bare of any labelling. True, I have seen fake labelled Bach's sold in the "grey markets" in China, and online. I have discussed this issue with factories: the reply is the fake branding is done by third parties AFTER the horns leave the factory.
...

----------------------------------------------------
In your experience, have bare 'clone' trumpets been sold by JV/OEM makers?

I can imagine that instruments that did NOT meet the JV/OEM quality control specifications would be left bare, and sold as unbranded. Or a 'special run' of unbranded instruments could be made.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Irving wrote:
What really amazes me is how good Trent sounds playing the fake Bach.

Clearly because it isn't that bad an instrument. He says himself in the video that it doesn't play poorly.


Seriously??
“Clearly because” Trent is a great player. You really believe that an outstanding player can’t sound good on a very low quality horn?

I think he can sound good on a horn that's capable of sounding good. He's a good player, he doesn't have magic powers that will allow him to sound good on a horn that's not capable of sounding good. I don't think you can tell anything meaningful about sound from the specific video he posted other than yes, it will play notes. If it were an expensive horn I suspect you wouldn't regard it as a valid way to demonstrate what it sounded like.

Can a really good player turn a sow's ear into a silk purse? Alison Balsom plays better than you, me, Trent and anyone on this forum and is known for her phenomenal, pristine tone.

As a test of this notion, judging on the continuum of what's possible regarding trumpet sound, do you think the sound she achieves with the horn in this video could be described as good? They've clearly got different gear in place to hear her talk than to record her playing given the clamping down of the background noise. Would you be satisfied with that sound on a concert stage?


Link


I think Trent’s entire reason for posting this video to begin with has been skewed. Trent, on his website, demos many horns that he sells, and he really never sounds “bad”. I believe his purpose here is to point out a counterfeit horn, not how it’s sound compares to something that’s better built.

It seems like you believe that this fake Strad is probably an ok horn for the money, I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else. I happen to believe that Bach would be nuts to let anyone put their name on an inferior (in comparison to an authentic Strad) horn.

“Hey, I bought this Bach Stradivarius, but it actually plays like an Amati, and the valves are self destructing after five months, Bach must be really slipping!”
What manufacturer wants THAT?

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
PDXbugler
Regular Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2019
Posts: 54
Location: OR

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:

I believe his purpose here is to point out a counterfeit horn, not how it’s sound compares to something that’s better built.


I also feel the intention of the video is to point out that it's a counterfeit, but if it weren't labeled Bach, it might be considered an adequate trumpet.

Brad361 wrote:

I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else.


We should all be trying a trumpet before trashing it, simply because it's a brand with which we're unfamiliar or it's made in China.
I've read several old posts mentioning that at one time Yamaha's quality wasn't up to par. If we're wearing blinders, we'll miss the diamond in the coal mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3619
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXbugler wrote:
Brad361 wrote:

I believe his purpose here is to point out a counterfeit horn, not how it’s sound compares to something that’s better built.


I also feel the intention of the video is to point out that it's a counterfeit, but if it weren't labeled Bach, it might be considered an adequate trumpet.

Brad361 wrote:

I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else.


We should all be trying a trumpet before trashing it, simply because it's a brand with which we're unfamiliar or it's made in China.
I've read several old posts mentioning that at one time Yamaha's quality wasn't up to par. If we're wearing blinders, we'll miss the diamond in the coal mine.


Aside from alloy problems in the early years, which resulted in pipes rotting out over time, Yamaha never made anything remotely as bad as the flood of junk we're seeing now from China. And unfortunately, based on my experience in working on many of them, Yamaha's student model trumpets have declined in quality from the days of the YTR2320.

The sound of an instrument is a highly subjective judgement - how it's built is not. If it falls apart or deteriorates before its time, there's a reason.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I felt that the video actually illustrated what a good player Trent is. The horn, in his hands, sounded fine. And for what it does, (we don't know what repair/adjustments may be required in the future), but for me, it seems well worth the money.

The morality is another issue. If it's intentional false representation, then it needs to be blackballed and the sellers hauled into court.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PDXbugler
Regular Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2019
Posts: 54
Location: OR

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:

Aside from alloy problems in the early years, which resulted in pipes rotting out over time, Yamaha never made anything remotely as bad as the flood of junk we're seeing now from China. And unfortunately, based on my experience in working on many of them, Yamaha's student model trumpets have declined in quality from the days of the YTR2320.

The sound of an instrument is a highly subjective judgement - how it's built is not. If it falls apart or deteriorates before its time, there's a reason.


It's interesting because of the high praises that I read about the Yamaha line. Thank you for the information.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grune
Regular Member


Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
grune wrote:
...
I have NEVER seen a local product leave a factory under a fake brand, but I have seen products leave entirely bare of any labelling. True, I have seen fake labelled Bach's sold in the "grey markets" in China, and online. I have discussed this issue with factories: the reply is the fake branding is done by third parties AFTER the horns leave the factory.
...

----------------------------------------------------
In your experience, have bare 'clone' trumpets been sold by JV/OEM makers?

I can imagine that instruments that did NOT meet the JV/OEM quality control specifications would be left bare, and sold as unbranded. Or a 'special run' of unbranded instruments could be made.

Jay


Answer to question: (a) I have not witnessed a JV selling non-branded products, and doubt they would. (b) For OEM, also not witnessed and also doubted. But, I suppose the possibility could arise for sales of OEM non-branded into the local distro channels; in which case, would not a non-branded OEM product be overall superior? Philosophy aside, I report only what I see/hear directly.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius, 180S37 (Silver Model 37 Bb), ML75618, purchased new in 1972.


Last edited by grune on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2579

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
It seems like you believe that this fake Strad is probably an ok horn for the money, I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else. I happen to believe that Bach would be nuts to let anyone put their name on an inferior (in comparison to an authentic Strad) horn.

“Hey, I bought this Bach Stradivarius, but it actually plays like an Amati, and the valves are self destructing after five months, Bach must be really slipping!”
What manufacturer wants THAT?

Brad

Clearly Bach has no say in the matter. Massively wealthy pharmaceutical companies can't stop Chinese counterfeit drugs from being made and entering the supply stream, relative pauper Bach/Selmer sure isn't going to.

Schiller instruments have "Frankfort Germany" on them. The Schiller Website has a laughable "company history" that's pure fiction. I have a Schiller rotary picc. I'm certain the horn has never been anywhere near Frankfort, from what I gather "Schiller" doesn't actually exist as an entity other than on paper, they're Chinese stencilhorns sold under various faux brand names - Gordon Hudson on here has the same instrument with a different name. Maybe not quite as big a tall tale as faking an actual company name. It's still a passably decent instrument, particularly considering the price. They sell a horn that's fine for church gigs etc. for a fraction of what boutique piccs go for.

I'm curious if anyone who's ever bought one of these actually believed they were getting a Strad. No American retailer carries these do they? I can see high school kids getting a kick out of one as a conversation piece - "hey man, look at my fake Strad!"

If I had one and were going to sell it, I'd make it clear in the listing that it's not a Bach and put up high quality audio so the purchaser can get a good idea of what it's capable of and decide if it's worth buying.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grune
Regular Member


Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
PDXbugler wrote:
Brad361 wrote:

I believe his purpose here is to point out a counterfeit horn, not how it’s sound compares to something that’s better built.


I also feel the intention of the video is to point out that it's a counterfeit, but if it weren't labeled Bach, it might be considered an adequate trumpet.

Brad361 wrote:

I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else.


We should all be trying a trumpet before trashing it, simply because it's a brand with which we're unfamiliar or it's made in China.
I've read several old posts mentioning that at one time Yamaha's quality wasn't up to par. If we're wearing blinders, we'll miss the diamond in the coal mine.


Aside from alloy problems in the early years, which resulted in pipes rotting out over time, Yamaha never made anything remotely as bad as the flood of junk we're seeing now from China. And unfortunately, based on my experience in working on many of them, Yamaha's student model trumpets have declined in quality from the days of the YTR2320.

The sound of an instrument is a highly subjective judgement - how it's built is not. If it falls apart or deteriorates before its time, there's a reason.


The Chinese are in the market for business reasons, solely. The "flood" is not created by the producers, but by the distributors and consumers. If demand were to cease, so would the flood.

The comparison to Yamaha is relevant only in the sense Yamaha trumpets were, at commencement, targeted to the student market, and Yamaha had teething problems. But Yamaha decided at the outset the Yamaha brand would, one day, be a recognised, valued brand world-wide. The past 45 years prove their trials and success.

The Chinese have no such goals: why bother, when the real profits are in the segment you can compete best? Can the Chinese make better horns? Yes. Will they? No. Why put yourself in a ring only to be knocked-out by much stronger opponents? True, many Chinese-made horns are not worth the price, as inflated by the middle-men. The Chinese do care about their products and channels - all the way to their banks!

The general rule is caveat emptor.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius, 180S37 (Silver Model 37 Bb), ML75618, purchased new in 1972.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grune wrote:
.....
The comparison to Yamaha is relevant only in the sense Yamaha trumpets were, at commencement, targeted to the student market, and Yamaha had teething problems.......


Not so sure that they were initially targeted at students, I don’t think that’s why Schilke was brought in.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/contents/winds/50th/index.html#d968779

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group