Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:01 pm Post subject:
Great idea posting this, there are well intentioned parents who are susceptible to this stuff. But I have to wonder, even if someone has zero experience with trumpets, wouldn’t you think that the price would be a tip-off? When I see a brand new “Rolex” selling for 300.00......I don’t need to be a jeweler to realize that something is off there.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
I'm sure it's one of the Ali Express horns. I read somewhere that it's a lower tier Bach with faux Strad labeling etched onto it. It might not even be a bad horn but it's not a Strad. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:15 pm Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
I'm sure it's one of the Ali Baba horns. I read somewhere that it's a lower tier Bach with faux Strad labeling etched onto it. It might not even be a bad horn but it's not a Strad.
Robert,
I know I have offended you in the past and I will pull this post if you pull yours.
That said, I watched the video and it was very clear this is not a Bach, but a counterfeit. So this must not be the horn you read about.
In addition, from what I took away from the video, is that this is indeed a bad horn.
I'm sure it's one of the Ali Baba horns. I read somewhere that it's a lower tier Bach with faux Strad labeling etched onto it. It might not even be a bad horn but it's not a Strad.
Robert,
I know I have offended you in the past and I will pull this post if you pull yours.
Go ahead and clarify how this is related to my comment.
Quote:
That said, I watched the video and it was very clear this is not a Bach, but a counterfeit. So this must not be the horn you read about.
I don't follow Bach closely, are any horns sold under the Bach name still made in China? If so, it seems plausible the same manufacturer or someone who has the blueprints for Bach horns in the counterfeit capital of the world could be changing some cosmetic details and putting out rebadged, fake Strads that are otherwise indistinguishable from student Bachs. Obviously Bach doesn't have the pull or resources to stop them from being marketed.
Quote:
In addition, from what I took away from the video, is that this is indeed a bad horn.
That could well be true, but that video isn't enough to tell anything definitive about the horn other than what it looks like. Have you personally played one?
Btw, $280 is a reseller price, these same horns can be had for less than that. It's a fact that it's not a Strad but it's very possible they're not any worse than many other cheap horns and might be better than some. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:12 pm Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
Robert P wrote:
I'm sure it's one of the Ali Baba horns. I read somewhere that it's a lower tier Bach with faux Strad labeling etched onto it. It might not even be a bad horn but it's not a Strad.
Robert,
I know I have offended you in the past and I will pull this post if you pull yours.
Go ahead and clarify how this is related to my comment.
Quote:
That said, I watched the video and it was very clear this is not a Bach, but a counterfeit. So this must not be the horn you read about.
I don't follow Bach closely, are any horns sold under the Bach name still made in China? If so, it seems plausible the same manufacturer or someone who has the blueprints for Bach horns in the counterfeit capital of the world could be changing some cosmetic details and putting out rebadged, fake Strads that are otherwise indistinguishable from student Bachs. Obviously Bach doesn't have the pull or resources to stop them from being marketed.
Quote:
In addition, from what I took away from the video, is that this is indeed a bad horn.
That could well be true, but that video isn't enough to tell anything definitive about the horn other than what it looks like. Have you personally played one?
Btw, $280 is a reseller price, these same horns can be had for less than that. It's a fact that it's not a Strad but it's very possible they're not any worse than many other cheap horns and might be better than some.
Robert,
I know based on your PMs in a previous thread that you took umbrage about my posting about trusting people we don’t know when they give advice. So I suspected this might also upset you. I apologize for presuming how you would react.
In this case Trent, who is immensely trusted on this site and who many of us recommend to people, took the time to single this particular horn out.
Your posts imply that it could be worth purchasing, without any experience or direct knowledge of the horn’s provenance.
Personally even if you had Trent’s reputation I would still take Trent’s advice since he actually has the horn and has documented it in the video.
You, however, are inferring a lot without much, or anything, to go on.
I know based on your PMs in a previous thread that you took umbrage about my posting about trusting people we don’t know when they give advice.
You never clarified whether or not you were referring to me after a direct inquiry in a PM. Seemed like the chicken-hearted path but hey.
Quote:
In this case Trent, who is immensely trusted on this site and who many of us recommend to people, took the time to single this particular horn out.
Sure it's a counterfeit, but since you mention it can you think of a reason why Trent's assessment of the horn as a musical instrument could potentially be not entirely impartial and objective?
Quote:
Your posts imply that it could be worth purchasing, without any experience or direct knowledge of the horn’s provenance.
At root it's a roughly $200 - $300 horn. They're not trying to get Strad money for it. What would you expect for that price? Even if someone is stu...um, uninformed enough to believe it's really a Strad given the price and the back-channel way they got it, I'll bet they still got their money's worth.
I've thought about getting one just out of curiosity fully aware of what it is but decided I didn't need one more horn lying around. If I said I actually had played one and felt it was okay for the money would you feel compelled to make more obliquely dismissive commentary? Your entire motive for jumping in here at all is apparently the fact that I commented.
Btw, you're not one of those who've engaged in threads about plastic horns and assessed them as "not that bad", "okay for beginners" etc. are you?
Quote:
You, however, are inferring a lot without much, or anything, to go on.
That actually is incorrect which a look at my signature would demonstrate. I've heard lots of dismissal of Chinese horns being junk, my personal experience with them doesn't bear that out. Not a great number of horns but a pretty diverse cross-section. I believe some of the horns Trent sells are made in China, maybe at the same factory, with modifications some of which he doesn't disclose at a price point somewhere between but way above inexpensive Ebay Chinese horns and "name" pro horns. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
About two weeks ago, I sent a message for sh*ts and giggles to a fleabay seller asking them to confirm it's authentic and received the following response:
Hi friends
This is made in taiwan, our company have this qualification to produce it
Thanks again
but it's haven't paid any tax to our country ,
We are a honest seller please don't worried about it ,
our country don't think this is the original one.
Best regards
Sunny
I wouldnt be afraid of Ali Baba and their counterfeit products... it's so obvious, you must know it is a fake trumpet, not to mention saxes. I'd rather keep my eyes open on second hand instruments... sold for 1000 $ or more. Especially the most popular brands like Yamaha and Bach. Always check serial numbers and possibly send an email to the real company... to check if the number make sense.
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3633 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:28 am Post subject:
"I don't follow Bach closely, are any horns sold under the Bach name still made in China? If so, it seems plausible the same manufacturer or someone who has the blueprints for Bach horns in the counterfeit capital of the world could be changing some cosmetic details and putting out rebadged, fake Strads that are otherwise indistinguishable from student Bachs. Obviously Bach doesn't have the pull or resources to stop them from being marketed."
The answer is yes. I had one come into the shop the other day. It was a TR300 Chinese-made clone with additional numbers and letters on the mouthpiece receiver, and it had the Bach logo on the bell. I don't know if it was a Conn-Selmer product for sure, but there were enough recognizable parts that I think it was.
Since Yamaha has shifted production of their student instruments to China, it's reasonable to expect that Conn-Selmer has done so as well. The TR500 is Chinese made, and there is word out there that the Holton french horn line is now being made at least partially in China. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:43 am Post subject:
Deleted _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:48 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
I'm sure it's one of the Ali Express horns. I read somewhere that it's a lower tier Bach with faux Strad labeling etched onto it. It might not even be a bad horn but it's not a Strad.
As Trent basically said, if a price is too good to be true, it usually is. There’s a big difference between a cheaply made low quality product and a counterfeit, obviously this horn is counterfeit, why would Bach (Selmer) or anyone else clone one of their established high quality horns and label it a Stradivarius?Why would they want any of those floating around in the market?
Speaking only for myself, if I see “Ali Express” I click to the next webpage.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:02 am Post subject:
PDXbugler wrote:
About two weeks ago, I sent a message for sh*ts and giggles to a fleabay seller asking them to confirm it's authentic and received the following response:
Hi friends
This is made in taiwan, our company have this qualification to produce it
Thanks again
but it's haven't paid any tax to our country ,
We are a honest seller please don't worried about it ,
our country don't think this is the original one.
Best regards
Sunny
This is interesting... Taiwan makes good trumpets and I'm pretty sure they're (one of....) the place where the tr500 is made. The other Trent (Hamilton) had a review of one of these and gave it an "okay" review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQuKGQlFG2Y
I wonder if the person who brought it into Trent Austin felt scammed by it...
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:48 am Post subject:
I was watching Trent Hamilton's video about the horn, and then looking at them on Aliexpress, and my 8 year old said "Why don't we get one?". Rest assured, she's on a 1955 Special, which I might get cosmetically overhauled if and when she makes it into the top band in her program. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:59 am Post subject:
It's just great to se so many comments based on not seeing or playing an instrument or brand but assuming to know something about it! What a colossal waste of time and energy.
To possibly help Trent set the record straight, I DO know this brand and have played one of these horns.
The case is junk, cheaply made and wears out fast. The instrument itself is junk. Plays terribly, tight, out of tune, poor tone quality as well. In short, it is a clear knock off and plays NOTHING like a reasonable trumpet of any brand should. It is not worth any amount of money it is so poor.
Any one considering a trumpet for any purpose apart from as a vase or lamp will be well rewarded by avoiding these at all costs.
Harsh as I may seem, I have played one of these, and seen first hand how they wear and fare over about a year. When the owner replaced it for a second hand Macinkewicz, everyone around him (violas included) heard and made positive comments. That should take care of all the assumptions, conjectures and possibilities.
These instruments are garbage.
cheers
Andy
p.s. If you want, I can tell you what I really think! _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
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