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which trumpet is this..Selmer? now with a working link :)



 
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Bxls_chops
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Joined: 16 Jan 2022
Posts: 7
Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:08 pm    Post subject: which trumpet is this..Selmer? now with a working link :) Reply with quote

Hi all,

I bought this trumpet which was in bad shape and had it serviced but we fail to identify it..It looks like a French made trumpet, came with a Selmer 3s mouthpiece but it has no engravings, labels, texts, names on it...just the valves say 1, 2, 3 with also a "p" I think on the 2nd valve. Could it be a Selmer Sabarich for exemple? or another French made brand? Any knowledge on copies of Selmer with no engravings? or Selmer also had instruments without any engraving, not even a serial number?
Spent quite some time looking but I can't find any horn that looks exactly like this one on the net...

it plays really false in Bb so I would say it's mainly a C trumpet with a Bb extension but tbh I have no experience with Bb-C trumpets

otherwise it sounds not bad and it plays really well

any ideas? Thx

you can see the trumpet through these links :

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Bxl_chops/p/cce5bd81-715b-412b-b5e4-615a31ee58eb

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Bxl_chops/p/ffd9bbb3-1d89-4f97-8249-83393883ef43

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Bxl_chops/p/b7dc17a5-ac19-44e6-ab13-f945d1efd762
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Trumpets : Conn Constellation 38B, Olds Mendez
Flugel : Courtois 154
Cornet : Olds ambassador


Last edited by Bxls_chops on Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:24 am; edited 6 times in total
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etc-etc
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Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6159

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: which trumpet is this..Selmer? any other ideas? Reply with quote

Bxls_chops wrote:
Hi all,

I bought this trumpet which was in bad shape and had it serviced but we fail to identify it..It looks like a French made trumpet, came with a selmer 3s mouthpiece but it has no engravings, labels, texts, names on it...just the valves say 1, 2, 3 with also a "p" I think on the 2nd valve. A selmer? or another French made brand? Spent quite some time looking but I can't find any horn that looks exactly like this one on the net...

it plays really false in Bb so I would say it's mainly a C trumpet with a Bb option but tbh I have no experience with Bb-C trumpets

otherwise it sounds not bad

any ideas? Thx

you can see the trumpet through this link :

https://www.2dehands.be/plaats/m1812598416/view?previousAction=syiSuccess
[/img]


Please try posting the image via a hosting service that does not require logging in. The image will show then directly in TH as it does, for example, here:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1649019#1649019
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clicking on the links just brings me to a Photobucket sign up screen.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
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michael_bxl
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Location: Between Brussels and Ankara

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.2dehands.be/v/muziek-en-instrumenten/blaasinstrumenten-trompetten/m1812598416-trompet-bb-c

is it this trumpet ?
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michael_bxl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by michael_bxl on Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:20 am; edited 2 times in total
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except for the lack of a double wall valve cluster - sure looks like a Selmer.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming that this is the instrument in question:

https://www.2dehands.be/v/muziek-en-instrumenten/blaasinstrumenten-trompetten/m1812598416-trompet-bb-c

It looks vaguely French and vaguely Selmer-ish.

However, if you look at the details, the ferrules, the valve cluster, the finger hook - it's only kind of like a Selmer, or mostly Selmer-ish.

My initial instinct is that it's an Indian made horn because of the complete lack of markings and their propensity to make ballpark copies of various French details on some of their instruments. It's possible they made some decent playing horns. Is it actually silver plate or is it some kind of chrome or nickel plating? If it's not silver, that says Indian to me.

In particular, the finger hook looks similar to a vintage Selmer, but it's not. The Selmer is slimmer, more detailed, more refined. This is more chunky and really only shares that broad look of the Selmer style. I have a Radial with that hook, it's not the same. The hook on the Sabarich is the same as my Radial, essentially, more detailed and not as blocky.

That bell flare looks a little too wide to me, just in the picture. That's something you see in Indian trumpets. Usually, it's more obvious that it's too wide, this isn't that bad, but I did notice it.

It's also possible it's some random stencil made probably made in Eastern Europe decades ago. That's just basing it on the general style, nothing specific - the style says it's from some decades ago and stencils were made in Eastern Europe more back then. It also could be a French stencil or something like that as well.

Finally, if it was an actual Selmer, made by Selmer in France, it would say that. There wouldn't be a mystery. Reputable factories that sell their own horns under their label are good at stamping those horns with THEIR name. Some other factories - like Couesnon - or Blessing in the US - made plenty of stencils, but they generally stamped them with.... something.

No markings usually mean something in the grand scheme of things.

Most other things are stencils. Maybe by decent factories in Europe, maybe random places in Asia or India.

But, hey, if it plays decently, that's all that matters.
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krax
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a Selmer.

It's inspired by Selmer, yes. Many parts are "Selmerish" and Selmer valve blocks made right before 1940 look like that valve block, but all dimensions, everywhere, are different.

My guess is that it was made by some Belgian maker who didn't put their name on it just because it's a copy. You know, you had some boutique makers in Belgium back in the days, I'm sure they could copy anything a customer wanted to be copied.

And yes, it certainly looks like it's a C-trumpet with a Bb-extension, meaning that if you play it in Bb, you have to pull out the valve slides a bit to get good intonation.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a transitional trumpet from when Selmer purchased Millereau (1931) and before they introduced the double wall valve casing (1937)?
Millereau did make a C trumpet.


The following link will download a PDF file to your computer .

https://brasshistory.net/Selmer%20Trumpets.pdf
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krax
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the first Selmer trumpets, their valve block had a much simpler design, which disappeared about 1935-1937 (it was in use before they got the US patent). Again, this is not a Selmer.

Remember that there were (and still are) many small brass boutique makers all over Europe at that time. Anyone of them could have made this trumpet based on the pictures in the Selmer catalogue.

I did not suggest a Belgian maker out of nowhere. Once I bought a really nice very well made trumpet with fancy design details - unnamed - that I at last identified as a Steenhuysen trumpet. Steenhuysen was/is a Brussels based maker:
https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php?thisrec=994

It's in Brussels today so it was probably made in Brussels too. That's how it worked with those small makers, they sold to their local customers. Exports before the EU weren't that simple. The trumpet I owned, yes I bought it from Belgium.
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Perhaps a transitional trumpet from when Selmer purchased Millereau (1931) and before they introduced the double wall valve casing (1937)?
Millereau did make a C trumpet.

No, Selmer puts a lot of little detail in their instruments, especially their older vintage offerings that the instrument in question does not have.

If you look at the PDF you linked to - the 1947 model 23A has a nice picture. The finger hook has a lot more detail than the trumpet in question. They share a similar general shape, but the other one doesn't have Selmer's level of detail.

"But what if Selmer added the detail in later iterations?"

In my experience, Selmer always had detailed parts from the go. Look at their trumpets, clarinets, and saxophones, there's not usually parts that look less refined and then grow more refined. They just make the parts refined from the go - or change the style and do something different.

Also, frankly, the total lack of any markings is a tell-tale sign. There just aren't unmarked Selmer Paris instruments or Vincent Bach instruments and so forth in any real numbers, unless it's maybe among the very first prototype that that maker ever did, and Selmer was well established as a trumpet maker by they started making those style finger hooks. Selmer had been making clarinets since before 1900, so the idea that they would make unmarked trumpets is a bit farfetched, in my opinion. I see posts like "oooh, maybe it's an unmarked Mark VI or New York Bach or Martin Committee, whatever ..... and they almost, almost, almost never ever are - because there are almost no examples of those horns.

You can find pictures of Vincent Bach trumpet SN #16 on Robb Stewart's site. It's well marked and the bell markings are extremely similar to what you see on them today.

Usually, the simple answer in these cases is the correct one.

Unmarked horns are usually stencils or one offs. Figure out who made the stencil or one off is a much more difficult task.

To be clear, I'm not ripping the OP or any other commenter, it's just that I see these kinds of posts - not necessarily only on TH - about trying to figure out what some unmarked or barely marked horn is.

krax wrote:
No, the first Selmer trumpets, their valve block had a much simpler design, which disappeared about 1935-1937 (it was in use before they got the US patent). Again, this is not a Selmer.

Remember that there were (and still are) many small brass boutique makers all over Europe at that time. Anyone of them could have made this trumpet based on the pictures in the Selmer catalogue.

I did not suggest a Belgian maker out of nowhere. Once I bought a really nice very well made trumpet with fancy design details - unnamed - that I at last identified as a Steenhuysen trumpet. Steenhuysen was/is a Brussels based maker:
https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php?thisrec=994

It's in Brussels today so it was probably made in Brussels too. That's how it worked with those small makers, they sold to their local customers. Exports before the EU weren't that simple. The trumpet I owned, yes I bought it from Belgium.

Thanks for mentioning more local European makers. I hadn't thought of that.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
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Bxls_chops
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Joined: 16 Jan 2022
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Location: Brussels, Belgium

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all, many thanks for the research and my apologies that I wasn't more reactive, it has its reasons...

So most likely not a Selmer, could be Belgian (maybe likely as I bought the horn here from a local guy that had it in the family), French or even Indian haha...

Its kind of difficult to play, but it sounds really good with a bit of time to develop the feel of the "slot" of the notes which is a totally different feel as compared to my Conn Constellation that I mostly play. It's like the notes "flap out"

anyways I am trying to flip it as my 2022 good intention is to become more of a player and less of a collector, realizing that I only play 1 trumpet really regularly (a 1963 Conn Constellation..)

Belgian members- or visitors, feel free to come and try it (+ my other stuff..)

godspeed!
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I have yet to figure out who made the trumpet, the valve block seems to be an almost copy of a 30's Selmer Grand Prix. They stayed with single wall construction for a while with them.

You might post a picture of the pistons. Maybe we could narrow the search down. I toyed with the idea that it might be a Courtois stencil but could not find an exact match nor could I get a match with the EMO's valve casings.

http://trumpet-history.com/Virtual%20Museum_files/newpic053.JPG
Ref: http://trumpet-history.com/Virtual%20Museum.htm


If it is an attempt to copy the Selmer, they may have also copied the mouthpiece receiver taper - pre K-modified - which would give you a lot of mouthpiece gap when used with a modern mouthpiece. That might make the slotting a bit strange.

https://trevorjonesltd.co.uk/Selmer-Louis-Armstrong-Specilal-Trumpet-C1933.htm

Notice that your clone uses the 2nd slide pull knob with triangular reinforcement on the 1st slide too.
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Bill_Bumps
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krax wrote:
It's not a Selmer.


Definitely not. My horn is a 1959 Selmer K-Mod, and the trumpet in the photo resembles it only in a vaguely general outline.
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