Acoustics and Sound Perception

[ashenfang]

I figured there are enough players on this board who have probably played in similar settings who could provide some insight and feedback to my question.

I play trumpet every week at my church along with the pipe organ. Most of the time I play melody runs with occasional descants. The church is a cathedral with high vaulted ceilings and of a Gothic design. (Was built in 1869). The organ player and myself play from the choir loft, about 25 feet up above the church floor at the back. Organ pipes behind us.

Now, to the root of my question. Does building/acoustic design influence how tonation is received by the ear? Or a better way to put it, is it possible to be "in tune" where the sound originates but further away, it sounds slightly "out of tune"?

I ask because from where I stand, the organ and myself are in tune, but down at the church floor and further away, I have noticed on recorded videos that the sound between the trumpet and the organ sometimes sound slightly out of tune. Of course anyone I ask in person says it sounds fine, however, most of these people are not musical enough to realize when something is out of tune. I have wondered if what I am hearing is more of an artifact of the video/sound of the recording device. (typically cell phones).

The second part to the this question is, what is the best place for me to play from? Sitting? Standing? Horn directed at the floor? Level and directed toward the front of the church? Sound does strange things and the trumpet is very good at projecting. I want the organ/trumpet to blend well and not overpower.

Thanks!

[kalijah]

Room mic recordings, especially low quality ones like a cell phone, are usually unflattering and reveal tuning issues that do exist but are not as apparent to listening ears in the room. I wouldn't worry about it.

A higher quality recording set up with a stereo pair would make a better recording.

If sound volume is not an issue you should face such that the listeners will receive some direct sound. Obviously it is very reverberant space. You could play descants with indirect position for more reverberant sound.

[ashenfang]

Good points and thanks for the feedback!

You are kidding about reverb. Last November I played taps for veterans day and the reverb within the church was almost, haunting.

Cathedrals built during this time were actually constructed in a way to promote sound projection and amplification (design of walls, ceiling etc) since they didn't have modern day tech like amplifiers and speakers. Unfortunately, that reverb can play some serious tricks on the mind/ears.

[Eliot]

Reckon I'm pretty green with envy when I read your post. I'd really enjoy playing in the an auditorium with cathedral acoustics and volume (space).

1) I'm not an architect or a sound engineer
2) I have played in a reasonably large church auditorium (seats approx 250) accompanying the congregational singing with a large electronic two manual organ and piano accompaniment
3) I've also played as part of a quartet in the Perth (Western Australia) Concert Hall and the University of WA's Great Hall accompanied by the hall's pipe organ as special worship program items.
4) Our little group also played from the back balcony of the Wesley Church in Perth WA.
Hence my experience is pretty minor.

Best place for us was always the front of the church/auditorium facing the congregation for musical items, or, when accompanying the congregational singing, sitting in the front row of the church and projecting the sound towards the "altar" away from the congregants.

Possibly the best thing you could do would be to arrange with the organist a time when the cathedral is empty and then experiment with various locations.

Me? I'd take up station as close to the pipes as possible and project the sound towards the altar or the congregation. Which way would depend on the volume and tone of the trumpet; reflected sound may be easier on the ears of the congregants than direct sound.

FWIW

I'd be interested to know how you get on, whether or not you use my suggestions.

[mrhappy]

[Billy B]

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1541233
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Bill Bergren

[blbaumgarn]

Be as in tune with the organ or piano as you can and let it rip. Older churches were always my favorite. Both from in front of the congregation and balcony. And I have played in a bunch. Those times and sound memories are the best I have just because hearing a trumpet in church was the reason I wanted to start playing at age 10. Rehearsing in an empty church is somewhat different than playing when a cathedral or church if full up with people, but I think both places are exciting for their sound. Newer churches are all carpeted and much of the sound seems to be absorbed. I still loved playing in any church, anytime. Get it in tune with the organ and enjoy yourself.
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush

[OldSchoolEuph]

When it comes to how to position yourself and direct the bell, I find that you have to read the room for the piece you are doing it and what/who with. Large spaces are fun in that you can shape the sound by how you direct it (more/less resonance, reverb, accentuate or suppress high overtones, etc). I use recordings during rehearsal to judge if I am guessing right - and after a while, you get to know the hall if you are there regularly.

As for the intonation issue, playing close to an organ is problematic. The sound pressure plays tricks on your ear. Also, organs tend to not be perfectly in tune across their hundreds/thousands of pipes, and certain ranks will have a non-representative influence on where you are hearing pitch center based on their timbre and octave - with the high shrill ones being dominant close to the pipes, but not so in the hall.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Eliot]

[Andy Del]

Eliot is going rather well here, as the issue of intonation and organs is related more to the stops used than anything else.

I have played extensively with a very experienced and talented musician and his take is to use a 4 or 8 ft open diapason for tuning purposes. He also avoids using mixture with trumpet ALL the time. He also changes registration if I'm not playing, and is able to compliment the instrument he is accompanying (or who is accompanying the congregation. come to think of it, the organist my trumpet duo is now working with does the same thing once we mentioned it...

As a last, as mentioned already, recordings on phones, especially at a distance are essentially useless as a reference. the house sound, bouncing harmonics and distance will make it sound pretty ordinary.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[Eliot]