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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:47 pm Post subject: 1921 Holton-Clarke cornet: unusual finger buttons |
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As I mentioned in a previous post, I was recently gifted with a 1921 H-C cornet.
I'm interested to know if anyone else has acquired a horn with these particular finger buttons (or something very similar). Anyone?
https://i.postimg.cc/vZJtt2tf/H-Cfingerbuttons.jpg
I'm not completely taken with them, but they certainly do force me to use good finger placement and technique.[/img] _________________ trumpetp1 |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I’ve never seen those before. Are they the equivalent of training wheels?
I look forward to responses from people who know more. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like a factory job - really interesting. I just sold a Clarke cornet on ebay and they came in many configurations. C, HP Bb, LP Bb, A, you name it. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | It looks like a factory job - really interesting. |
If this is not a factory job, it was definitely professional done. The solder work is quite quite good...which is what leads me to think "factory." I could very well be wrong, though, which is why I thought to poll the collective mind of TH. _________________ trumpetp1 |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Anyone...?? _________________ trumpetp1 |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:20 am Post subject: |
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No idea. It's new to me. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone have any thoughts regarding to whom I might refer this quandary to??
I'm not a complete newbie, having played for the past 26 years, but I've never come across finger buttons such as those pictured in my initial post of this thread.
Naturally, they pique my curiosity. _________________ trumpetp1 |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:59 am Post subject: |
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These button baffles seem to enforce the idea of actuating the valves with the right hand only, unless they can be turned. |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | These button baffles seem to enforce the idea of actuating the valves with the right hand only, unless they can be turned. |
I've tried threading the finger buttons on differently. Each time, they end up as a right handed horn.
Hmmm...well, the left hand was said to be "sinister" way back when...the plot thickens... _________________ trumpetp1 |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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It might be worth reaching out to Josh Landress to see if he's ever seen a finger button set-up like that. Good luck! |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps this was done for someone who wanted to play the trumpet and could not control their fingers horizontal motion. Like someone who had a stroke.
I doubt someone like that would ever be able to play the flight of the bumblebee, but it might allow them to satisfy their desire to continue playing. |
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bean_counter Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2002 Posts: 125 Location: Oswego, IL
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen them once before. I was a kid in the mid ‘70s, 8th or 9th grade. Maybe it was some other kid’s grandparents horn, maybe it was in the back of the band storeroom at the American Legion, I can’t recall. I just remember them because they were, well, odd.
I played the horn, they were just a distraction. At the time I thought maybe they were intended to prevent poor finger position? Can’t play on the flat of your fingers, overhanging the button.
Maybe they were just bling for market differentiation, like all the tuning and key change gizmos makers put on horns of the era. _________________ Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3 |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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bean_counter wrote: | I have seen them once before. I was a kid in the mid ‘70s, 8th or 9th grade. Maybe it was some other kid’s grandparents horn, maybe it was in the back of the band storeroom at the American Legion, I can’t recall. I just remember them because they were, well, odd.
I played the horn, they were just a distraction. At the time I thought maybe they were intended to prevent poor finger position? Can’t play on the flat of your fingers, overhanging the button.
Maybe they were just bling for market differentiation, like all the tuning and key change gizmos makers put on horns of the era. |
I agree with your "they were just a distraction." And, yes, they do force proper finger placement. I'm not horrid with finger placement but this is a bit rigid for my tastes. Still, it's a neat little horn that I'd love to learn more about. Thanks for your reply _________________ trumpetp1 |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think it’s possible they were a modification to help a one-armed player like Wingy Manone have a more secure grip.
(Wingy lost an arm in an accident involving a streetcar. Joe Venturi used to send him one cuff link every Christmas.) _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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It would definitely force finger tips only _________________ a few different ones |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:24 am Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | I think it’s possible they were a modification to help a one-armed player like Wingy Manone have a more secure grip.
(Wingy lost an arm in an accident involving a streetcar. Joe Venturi used to send him one cuff link every Christmas.) |
That's an interesting theory. I tried to play it with just my right hand last night. While I could be wrong (and frequently am), the finger button "guards" seems to make it a lot harder to hold the horn and play. Hmmm... _________________ trumpetp1 |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:26 am Post subject: |
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I have contacted the HoltonLoyalist.com website to see if they might have any information regarding these unusual finger buttons. There hasn't been any reply yet, but it is still early Monday morning. I'll certainly update this thread if they reply. _________________ trumpetp1 |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Holton loyalist has been down for years. Maybe look through all the catalogs available at saxophone.org Look under the museum heading I believe the find the Holton catalogs. There’s a lot of info there. Does your horn have a pinky ring? If not it seems holding with one hand would be very cumbersome _________________ a few different ones |
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trumpetp1 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Dennis78 wrote: | Holton loyalist has been down for years. Maybe look through all the catalogs available at saxophone.org Look under the museum heading I believe the find the Holton catalogs. There’s a lot of info there. Does your horn have a pinky ring? If not it seems holding with one hand would be very cumbersome |
Well, that's unfortunate regarding HL.com. Bummer. I'll certainly wander over to saxophone.org when I get a free moment later.
I had hoped to ask the very same question using the Horn-u-copia website forum (which does appear to be active, with post dates within the past few days). However, every time I try to register, it pops up with an error regarding my email address...which definitely does NOT end with ".ru". There's quite a bit of useful information on that particular site regarding vintage horn. Again, bummer.
No, my cornet does not have a pinky ring or hook. Yes, that does make it more cumbersome to play with just the right hand. _________________ trumpetp1 |
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interfx Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2001 Posts: 678 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:33 am Post subject: |
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https://www.holtonloyalist.com/
HoltonLoyalist.com is still up and running! Although the email is overrun with spam, so I usually just check here on TH when people have questions.
The finger button examples you shared were not from the factory - I've seen an example a few years ago on a stencil (student level) horn. I would guess they were added to teach a student to not let their fingers overlap the valve caps.
Hope that helps, send me a PM here on TH, if you have specific question.... _________________ ------
trumpetLINKS: https://www.trumpetLINKS.com
BachLoyalist: https://www.bachloyalist.com |
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