Booking Fee Questions

[jhatpro]

How to any of you guys who handle the bookings for a band price your group to fit various budgets?

Do you have a flat rate for any and all? Do you offer a lower rate to a potential client who says "We can't afford that but what about...?"

If you do have different rates for different clients how do you deal with a high-rate client who has coffee with a low-rate client who says, "What, you only paid that much? I gotta talk to that guy!"

Thanks for any insights/advice!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[kehaulani]

In my case, it was always the going rate for the area.

When I was the leader, it was always a set rate.

As a side-man, I got paid a certain rate, usually the same, while the leader's/manager's profit margin may have been varying, depending on what he could negotiate.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Richard III]

What about number of players? Do you charge the same for a trio and a seven piece band? Do you charge a base fee for up to two hours? And then increase incrementally for each hour more? What will your players work for per hour?

What about the size of the venue? Same price for a small bar vs. a dance hall?
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[Turkle]

I charge way more money for corporate events and weddings than I do for bar/restaurant gigs. Weekends cost a lot more than weekdays. I also charge extra if we have to lug additional gear (like a PA) or if we have to travel somewhere weird. I also charge extra if the performance is long. So rates are definitely variable.

I quote a set rate per musician based on the above, and the client lets me know how many musicians they want. So I'll perform as a duo (piano & trumpet) up to a quintet depending on their budget.

For instance, recently a business contacted me to book my band for an event. I quoted a price per musician. Initially they said they wanted a quartet, but they couldn't get the budget, so they booked a trio instead. It's all the same to me - I make the same amount of money no matter what - but they'll be getting one fewer musician.
_________________
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[jhatpro]

Here's more information on our band. We're a 7-piece Dixieland group and, while we have played the occasional bistro most of our gigs have been at senior communities which, in the Chicago area, use a lot of entertainers.

The going rate at most of these places seems to be $150 for an hour-program and that's whether its for 7 musicians or 1 or 2.

We have charged and received as much as $350 from some of the higher end places but many more said that was out of their ballpark. After much debate the band's consensus has been to get $50 a man where we can but offer lower rates as well because we'd like to play more even if it means getting less.

So I sent out an email to a bunch of activity directors we'd never heard from and said we would be willing to consider their budget. Voila! We're now booked like crazy at $175 for seven players and even $150 in a few cases.

I'm sure this sound nuts to those of you who play at a higher level and see playing as a business. We're just trying to play music we like, have fun, and be able to get something for the time it takes to drive to and from these places.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[boog]

50 bucks a person is what I try to get for a 1-2 hour gig, 100 bucks for 3-4 hours. Of course, we average about 20 players, so that is out of a lot of the budget range for many venues in our area. We have played for benefits and church socials for much less, though.

Our big swing orchestra is basically a concert organization, and a hobby band for the majority of the members, with a handful of semi-pros/band directors, so we use our meager practice schedule to work on presenting a couple of concerts a year. Also, we have dues of 35 bucks a year for players, waved for college age and high school students for their first year

I am considering forming a "little big band" with maybe 4-7 horns and rhythm for gigging purposes, IF we can find the rehearsal time and a place to rehearse. Your Dixieland type band sounds like a fun idea.

We get calls to play at this and that all the time, and I usually have to turn people down because keeping up rehearsals for a gig book cuts into our concert prep time. We try to play at least grade 4-5 music, and that is taxing for hobby players when we only have 2 rehearsals a month. The alternative rehearsal weeks at the venue we use (a local college band room) involve our community symphonic band, so adding 2 extra Monday nights a month would involve finding another place to practice that doesn't CHARGE to use the facility.

Of course, we all live in the cultural armpit of the South...

Regards, Dave

[kehaulani]

$150 for an hour-program for 7 musicians?

Isn't that about twenty-one bucks a person? How much is gas and a hamburger & fries on the way home? Man, that's slave labour.

I would take the minimum pay per person ($50.00?) times the seven ($350.00?) with an extra 15-20% for whoever booked and coordinated the gig.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
Years ago, as a union member who played in a union band...I went to the union and they had a fee schedule. The chart had all sorts of columns for number of musicians, number of hours and a rate for doubles and triples. I tried to use that as a guide when we booked gigs for the quintet. Leader got more and in some groups there was a percentage that went to the group to maintain either equipment or library. A few years back, the non union groups were paying $40 for a two hour set, now it is $50 per two hour sets. I realize that this is not current union scale, but there are fewer union groups now. I still use contracts that resemble union contract language for the more important venues. I feel that if you demand the high union rates, you should all be members and then pay in to the work dues. I think that is only fair...To both the musicians and to the folks who are hiring you.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[adam.arredondo]

There's lots of different variables that can come into play, so I'll outline the situation I deal with that's closest to the original poster's.

Band size: Set, not flexible
Hiring party: Client (corporate event, festival, or private party)

When the client initially calls, I do three things (1) hear out their initial request, (2) Ask what else they need to get out of that conversation, (3) Tell them that the most important things I need to know first are the scope, the timeline, and the entertainment budget for their event.

If the client doesn't want to give me their budget I'll explain that I'm just looking for a ballpark figure so I can understand if I can provide what they're looking for. If they still don't give me a budget, I'll tell them the broad range of my rates (which I've already calculated).

Calculating rates:
Desired salary/no. of such gigs you would play in a year * no. of musicians = musician pay
+ band profit (% of single musician pay)
+ leader/manager fee for facilitating the gig (dealing with client, organizing band, travel, and lodging if necessary)
+ expenses (travel, lodging, per diem if applicable)

Use that formula to calculate the most expensive scenario (say, a week long gig in a foreign country requiring international air travel) and the least expensive gig that you wouldn't consider as worthy of a discount (maybe a 3-hour performance with no song requests at a local venue on a weekend).

For some of the professional working bands that I play in, that works out to $2k to $28k.

If the client says that their budget is within that range, then you should have no problem agreeing on a fair price (unless they want to pay 10 people $2k total to play on the other side of the globe for 2 months). Talk to them some more to figure out if your calculation for their situation matches their budget. If the client balks, they'll tell you what their budget is, maybe without you having to ask again ("Geez! I was thinking $1000 at the most").

If you think you could come down to the client's budget and you like the gig well enough to do so, tell them something like this: "I'm interested in this gig and I'd like to work with you if I can. If you can do a few other things for me I might be able to give you a discount. How does that sound?"

If they're open to that, ask for some things that would make the gig better for you: less time, a weekday time slot, free parking, a hot meal, pictures from their photographer of the band for your promotional purposes, client feedback for promotional purposes, referrals.

If none of those things work, they can't afford you and you shouldn't work with them unless they represent some cause the band believes in. Then just charge them for expenses or play pro bono.

tl, dr: Set a minimum and maximum price for the least and most hassle you'd go through for a gig. Don't go below or above that range.
_________________
Adam Arredondo
New Orleans
www.adamarredondo.com

[jhatpro]

We tried to establish a $50 per player/hour minimum but we just weren’t getting many gigs. I know $20 sounds more like a tip than a fee but, realistically, considering the kind of music we play and our limited ability to play it well it’s probably about what we’re worth.

If there was a demand for Dixieland and if we could play any tune like Tuba Skinny without our noses buried in the Real Dixieland Book we’d be in the union and be in demand even in the limited space traditional jazz now occupies. But neither of those ifs are true.

As a former manager of the Chicago Cubs liked to say, “If ifs and buts were candied nuts we’d all have a hell of a Christmas.”
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[PH]

I book several different kinds of groups and have found an ala carte menu model to be helpful.

First, ask what they are envisioning and their budget. sometimes they offer far more than you would have asked. Don't quote a price first in case you undercut yourself.

I have a base amount I need to earn as leader. The larger the group, the more I need, as additional musicians usually require more time spent on emails, phone calls, and logistics.

I have a base amount I try to pay my musicians. This let's me quote the base amount that a trio costs, a quartet, a quintet, etc.

I add a surcharge for certain things.

Do you need us to provide a PA? That adds to the fee.

Do we need a vocalist? That adds to the fee (more than adding an instrumentalist).

Does the gig require specific clothing? Tux? Suit and tie? Is it at a nudist colony (Seriously, I got this inquiry once. Some friends under priced me and I didn't get the gig!)

Do we need to learn a special new song for the gig? Do I need to transcribe it or write a chart?

Does the maid of honor want to sing a song with the band? (If it turns out she can actually sing I renegotiate that on the spot)

A certain amount per mile per vehicle if the band needs to drive out of town. Obviously, airfare if the gig requires that. Hotel rooms and some kind of meal arrangement if we will be gone from our homes for overnight.

This gives me room to negotiate and adapt to every situation and every client budget.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com

[Turkle]

As Christian Peters notes above, it's pretty easy to Google and find union rates for performances in your area.

For instance: Here is a link to a 2018 Broadway scale summary. https://www.local802afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Broadway-Scales-2018.pdf

That's a great benchmark, and for corporate/wedding work, you should absolutely get at least that much per musician. Again, for bars/restaurants I'm more flexible on price (esp. if there's going to be a tip bucket) but for corporate/wedding/church stuff I think it's best to stick to union wage or higher.

One of my considerations for the above is that although the bar/restaurant work generally doesn't pay as well, there are often great perks, including food and drink for the band, tip buckets, convenient location (I love playing gigs I can walk to!), ability to hang with friends, have friends sit in, etc. Furthermore, playing in bars and restaurants and distributing my card has led to people booking us for corporate gigs and weddings, which pay real money. So there are definitely perks to playing in busy restaurants/bars.
_________________
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[jhatpro]

Thanks for all the detailed and helpful replies!

Reading through them all it's pretty clear that many of you guys are playing in the majors while me and my erstwhile bandmates are playing American Legion ball.

But it's fun if not profitable!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[crose]

I was taught years ago the plumbers rule:

What does a plumber charge for their services in your area? They vary from area to area.

Are your skills any less specialized than a plumber?

This logic seems to resonate especially well when folks actually know what a plumber charges

[boog]

10-15 years ago my wife and I had a small combo, PBDG and one horn, and we all did vocals...jazz, classic rock, blues, etc...I was the guitarist and occasional trumpet player. We had a semi-regular coffee house gig in our town, mostly for fun and live audience rehearsal time. We put out a tip jar once or twice, and the first time we netted $0.36...was not much of a pay split!

It was mostly for fun, and we had a great time and good camaraderie for a bunch of 50-something year olds, and we occasionally got some real gigs.

Fun is what keeps us going...

Dave

[kehaulani]

[Don Herman rev2]