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tubbs831
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HERMOKIWI
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 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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If so, here's where both sides come out with press releases claiming that their side "won" and the other side "lost."
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alexwill
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | If so, here's where both sides come out with press releases claiming that their side "won" and the other side "lost." |
You sound like someone that has absolutely no experience whatsoever in orchestral collective bargaining. The CSO is heavily dependent upon the support of the philanthropic community, and they are not going to do or say anything to undermine the significance of a hard-fought agreement. As unpleasant as it is, people expect some degree of animosity during negotiations, but they also expect folks to put on a happy public face and get back to business once an agreement has been hammered out. You get a certain amount of latitude during this process, but once it has been settled, it is expected that the confrontation and negativity stop. To continue would be institutional suicide.
Whenever negotiations involve a work stoppage, things are going to get heated via the media, more so now than ever. A lot of hurtful things were said, and damage was done, in a very public way. Now that an agreement is imminent, all of that has to be tabled, and the CSO has to immediately focus on repairing relationships and rebuilding trust among all of its constituents - board, management, musicians, donors, customers and the public at large. Nobody wants to give money to an orchestra at war with itself, which is why negotiating in the press is so dangerous.
I do not have the details of this possible agreement, but you can bet that neither side got everything they wanted - it never works that way. There will be some disgruntled folks, as there always are. However, the adults in the room know that at the end of the day, you get the best deal you can and move forward. Rubbing the other side's nose in this agreement would be counterproductive and in fact self-destructive, and I assure you the point has been driven home to both management/staff and musicians alike.
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Jim Wilt
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your contribution Jim. It's always great to hear from those with the experience.
I'm sure glad the strike is presumably over. And I hope (but doubt) the musicians received all or at least nearly all they were bargaining for. On a personal note, we missed two concerts that we were very much looking forward to, but at least we'll be able to choose concerts in the future to replace the ones we missed. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| MrClean wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | If so, here's where both sides come out with press releases claiming that their side "won" and the other side "lost." |
You sound like someone that has absolutely no experience whatsoever in orchestral collective bargaining. The CSO is heavily dependent upon the support of the philanthropic community, and they are not going to do or say anything to undermine the significance of a hard-fought agreement. As unpleasant as it is, people expect some degree of animosity during negotiations, but they also expect folks to put on a happy public face and get back to business once an agreement has been hammered out. You get a certain amount of latitude during this process, but once it has been settled, it is expected that the confrontation and negativity stop. To continue would be institutional suicide.
Whenever negotiations involve a work stoppage, things are going to get heated via the media, more so now than ever. A lot of hurtful things were said, and damage was done, in a very public way. Now that an agreement is imminent, all of that has to be tabled, and the CSO has to immediately focus on repairing relationships and rebuilding trust among all of its constituents - board, management, musicians, donors, customers and the public at large. Nobody wants to give money to an orchestra at war with itself, which is why negotiating in the press is so dangerous.
I do not have the details of this possible agreement, but you can bet that neither side got everything they wanted - it never works that way. There will be some disgruntled folks, as there always are. However, the adults in the room know that at the end of the day, you get the best deal you can and move forward. Rubbing the other side's nose in this agreement would be counterproductive and in fact self-destructive, and I assure you the point has been driven home to both management/staff and musicians alike. |
Learn to read. I haven't claimed to be an expert in collective bargaining. I claim to be an expert in behavioral science. That's what I've studied in extreme depth every day for the past 40+ years.
Here's a link to an article containing the typical self-righteous "Crusader For The Down-Trodden Worker" press release:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/stop-and-shop-announces-tentative-agreements-ending-strike/ar-BBW9Vx9?li=BBnbfcL
Specifically, this statement from the UFCW:
“Today is a powerful victory for the 31,000 hardworking men and women of Stop & Shop who courageously stood up to fight for what all New Englanders want — good jobs, affordable health care, a better wage and to be treated right by the company they made a success,” the UFCW statement said.
The terms "courageously," "fight" and "treated right" coupled with the implication that the employer has oppressed the employees with bad jobs, unaffordable health care and low wages together with the audacious implication that the the employees alone made the company a success are typical. These are the kinds of statements we've seen permeate the CSO strike.
These are products of behavioral science, not collective bargaining.
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I can read. I didn't say you claimed to be an expert. Quite the contrary in fact, so perhaps you should revisit what I wrote. The degree of confidence in which you state your opinions (there is an 'air of absolute' around them) makes me think that you strongly believe you are right. IMHO you really have no idea of what you're talking about as it pertains to labor relations in top-tier orchestras.
At the risk of sounding elitist, there are major differences. Stop and Shop is not dependent on the generosity of donors in order to exist, therefore its workers are not concerned about what the public thinks of them. I don't think there is anywhere near the degree of customer loyalty to these cashiers and stockpeople, etc (and I'm not saying that is right or wrong), so relationships do not have to be preserved. While their lawyers may feel otherwise, the rank and file couldn't care less about fallout from bad press.
Conversely, the CSO is a tight-knit family, most or all of which are present at meetings to discuss matters pertaining to negotiations - they are well-informed, and the negotiating committee and its lawyer have undoubtedly made it abundantly clear what type of communication is appropriate, and what is not. There is a great deal of solidarity there, and if someone decides to go "loose-cannon" and start spouting off their personal grievances to the press, they are going to be on the receiving end of a severe smack-down from their colleagues. These are sophisticated people accustomed to a collective bargaining environment.
I could end up eating crow here, but I don't think so. I've been in the business for 37 years and have been though many, many negotiations. Power comes from unity, and those rules apply here, too.
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Jim Wilt
LA Philharmonic
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MrClean wrote: | | I can read. I didn't say you claimed to be an expert. Quite the contrary in fact, so perhaps you should revisit what I wrote. The degree of confidence in which you state your opinions (there is an 'air of absolute' around them) makes me think that you strongly believe you are right. IMHO you really have no idea of what you're talking about as it pertains to labor relations in top-tier orchestras. |
Did you read the commentary/press releases from both sides during the course of the CSO strike? That commentary and those press releases are of the exact accusatory/self-righteous/self-serving character that I've described is so common in these disputes. So much for your statement that I have no idea of what I'm talking about as it pertains to labor relations in top-tier orchestras. What I'm saying is exactly what happened during the course of the CSO strike.
The follow up may be different because once the the parties reach an agreement they have a mutual interest in promoting harmony. So let's see what happens. The most non-combative/non-adversarial statement post-strike would be a joint statement. If the parties make separate statements each of those statements is highly likely to contain some degree of adversarial "spin."
Neither side showed much skill here. As Sun Tzu (the ultimate behavioral scientist) said in 480 B.C., "Those who win 100 triumphs in 100 conflicts do not have supreme skill. Those with supreme skill bend the strategy of others without coming to conflict."
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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My initial response in this thread was a reaction to your statement that post-settlement, either one or both sides would not be able to resist their base impulse to declare themselves "winners".
I don't dispute that things got very nasty there - we are in total agreement on much of what you said. When negotiations spill into the press, a lot of rhetoric gets thrown around. Provocative statements are made, and some things that should not be aired end up in the media. Generally, negotiations happen behind closed doors, and we only get a peek at the finally agreement. However, in the event of a strike or lockout, the gloves come off and it is tough to resist the temptation to plead your case to the court of public opinion. The big problem is once the dust settles, you have to convince your donors and subscribers that everything is hunky-dory and we're all best buddies again.
My comments refer to what happens when a settlement is reached -at that point, it is imperative that both sides bury the proverbial hatchet and put on a good public face. Chest-pounding or trying to shame the other side at this point would be a bad strategy, and I expect the CSO to rise above those impulses.
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Jim Wilt
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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This crow tastes like crap....
Actually it tastes pretty good given the circumstances. The musicians are indeed claiming victory, and I am happy that my friends and colleagues in Chicago are back to work.
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Jim Wilt
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Last edited by MrClean on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ProAm
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| From what I’ve been able to read it seems like Rahm Emanuel is a winner. |
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bbanktrump
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| He’s running. |
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FTee
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| bbanktrump wrote: | | He’s running. |
Actually, Emanuel is a lame duck. In fact, because of his lame-duck status, he might have been the only public official in Chicago who could take the risks necessary to beat up on -- I'm sorry, persuade -- both sides to the point where they could settle. Bottom line, this is a very nice punctuation to his tenure as Mayor of Chicago, and a divisive and bitter chapter in the long and glorious history of the CSO can now be closed. |
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bbanktrump
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I know. It’s a joke, brah. |
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FTee
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Got it, "brah." Very funny. |
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LaTrompeta
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'll just continue to enjoy the recordings of yesteryear, with Boulez, Solti, Barenboim and Kubelik conducting. I doubt I'll have the time to ever get through all these recordings, anyway.
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