Boring out Mouthpiece Throat

adc · Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:00 am Post subject: Boring out Mouthpiece Throat

My teacher who is well known and experienced in the area indicated that he frequently uses a tapered reamer to slightly bore out the throat near the cup of a cornet MP. I use a Yamaha 11C4 which is close to a 7C he should have it for my when I take my lesson. I am anxious to see the difference!!

Anyone else done it? I am not one for changing what a manufacturer does but he indicated it helps with certain horns.

He does think it will help my King Master and Conn 36A
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JayKosta · Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject:

It's common for mpc designers to have their own views and experiences about the various dimensions, tapers, lengths, etc. It might also be affected by the player's embouchure anatomy - lips size, protrusion beyond inside the rim, etc.

Doing throat modifications are usually fairly simple and don't require expensive tools, so it's the first thing that is tinkered with.

Whether any specific mod actually works better for you can only be determined AFTER the mod is done and a reasonable testing duration is complete.

I think that some mpc makers are very opposed to changing their pieces - basically saying "if you change it, it's NOT 'our mouthpiece' any more - do at your own risk".

Jay
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Tpt_Guy · Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:45 pm Post subject:

Some good reading on modifying mouthpiece throats:

https://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhead/Mouthpiece_throat_size.html

If you can locate it, The Proper Selection of Cup Mouthpueces by Jody C. Hall, commonly referred to as "Conn's Blue Booklet," is an excellent read on mouthpiece design. I did a search for it and could no longer find it as a free download, but it can be downloaded from Amazon.

I wouldn't (and don't) put much stock in what most players argue about mouthpiece designs and what the various parameters do (sorry). Instead I refer to the above two references as well as advices I've received from makers such as Matt Frost. Doing so has served me well so far.
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LaserJim · Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:09 am Post subject:

The Proper Selection of Cup Mouthpieces by Jody C. Hall
I found it here, an interesting read:
https://docplayer.net/53874758-The-proper-selection-of-cup-mouthpieces-another-conn-educational-series-publication.html

James

grune · Regular Member Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 67

scottfsmith · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:25 am Post subject:

It sounds like a good idea to me, those mouthpieces are trumpet cups on a cornet shank and it sounds like he wants to make it more like a real cornet mouthpiece.
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O00Joe · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:14 am Post subject:

Speaking of reading material about mouthpiece usage, has anyone read or have the book written by Mr. and/or Ms. Stork?
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mrhappy · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:11 am Post subject:

lipshurt · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:03 pm Post subject:

most of that stuff is in the blue book by conn. Real good info that was based on technology that removed the human player from the equation.

One thing to remember about the slightly tapered throat reamer (also called a tapered broach) is that the non-cylindrical throat is a lot different in intonation than the cylindrical throat. Tapered throats would work better with deep cups, and cylidrical would generally be better for shallow cups. Tapered throats raide the upper register a bit, and deep cups lower the upper register a bit.
Shallow cups raise the upper register and benefit from a longer cylindrical throat to bring it back down. That is one of the reasons a "smaller" backbore has better piutch with shallow cups. With less insertion depth of the backbore reamer you get a longer throat section, if the overall length stays the same.

The writings by conn regarding this stuff is good. The patent paperwork takes some time to wrap your head around though.
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oliver king · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1742

I bought a Monette B2S3/82p and stopped thinking about it.
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cgaiii · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:44 pm Post subject:

When I got my current main Bb trumpet, I wanted a more open mouthpiece. I found that the old Bach mouthpiece I had played for years was equivalent to a modern 1.5 C. I got one bored out from 27 to 26 by Mouthpiece Express and it gave me just what I was looking for at the time, just a touch more open feel. Then I went and put metal valve guides in it and had to go searching again. I am currently playing with a Bach Symphonic that has a the same 26 throat and adds a more open backbore (24) to the design. I had this mouthpiece before the new valve guides, but thought it too light, but with the new valve guides, it gives me more control.
It constantly amazes me how little changes echo all the way through and cause a need for something different up front.
So anyway, I found having the 1.5 C stock mouthpiece bored out, had a helpful effect. It was a guess, aided by some discussions on this forum, in a safari that worked until I changed something else.
I think it is all a matching problem. The mouthpiece has to go with the horn for you. And that match can change if you modify something.
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yourbrass · Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:21 pm Post subject:

"However, there is much subjective evidence to indicate that the shape of the bottom of the cup, or "shoulder-of-the-throat" does affect tone quality, and to a lesser degree, the "resistance" of the instrument."

The Conn article was very interesting , thanks to whoever pulled it up.

What many people now call the "secondary cup" is what the article talks about here. I have a Stomvi mouthpiece with a very small throat, but I would never change it. The intonation and tone on the thing are so good, that's it, I can't do better.

I've seen this over and over with my colleague who does mouthpiece alteration, drill sizes aren't necessarily that important, it's things like the approach to that point that are far more important.
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cgaiii · Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 6:44 am Post subject:

Really enjoyed reading the Conn article. It would be nice if everything were so logical.
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C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
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Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

mafields627 · Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 7:33 am Post subject:

I don't think you would be out of line for doing that. Bach originally supplied reamers to open their mouthpieces to the player's desired size.
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scottfsmith · Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:14 am Post subject:

lipshurt · Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 am Post subject:

that last paragraph has some issues, but the overall gist is correct. Things are inter-related.
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adc · Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:51 am Post subject:

Well he reamed it slightly for me. I decided I did not like the change. It made it more airy and lighter. This may be a bad description. Also I lost a bit of high range. So for now I am not going to go further.
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JayKosta · Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 2:54 pm Post subject:

B. Scriver · Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:37 am Post subject:

The book is very similar to others written in that time frame, 50 plus years ago. It was advanced for 1963. John Backus, William T Cardwell, and Arthur H Benade wrote many books in this era and on these subjects.

In this particular publication it doesn't mention that linear (conical or cylindrical) the length determines the pitch. In non-linear shapes the volume determines the pitch. Most mouthpieces today are non-linear. The cup and throat entrance are non-linear, that meets a cylindrical section of throat and then a non-linear backbore. The non-linear shape must solve the soundwave equation and any transition from a non-linear to linear must have the correct mathematical transition or path. Putting a taper area of the throat will have an effect in more that just the blow, it will have an effect on the pressure or standing wave set up. It is possible to program a non-linear backbore from the bore diameter to the exit diameter.

Besides the linear vs non-linear shape we must think about lip oscillation and lip engagement. Lip Oscillation was mentioned. Lip engagement is one of the most important factors. We take the volume of the mouthpiece that is non-linear. Subtract the volume of lip that goes in the cup and the volume you have left sets up the basic pop pitch frequency. Different players on the same mouthpieces will have a different frequency.

What else, oh the rim contour has 8 parameters. They play a very important role and determine if the lip is impinged or free to vibrate. Add the alpha angle, beta angle, throat exponent, and over 20 parameters to balance a mouthpiece and it can become quite complicated.

You take one tool and remove metal. just a little between the backbore and throat section. What happens, you change the backbore, change the throat, change the mathematical path that determines how the standing wave is set up. It might work, can you repeat it?

How to put metal back in the mpc after to take is out? Someone with a lot of time can work in that.

Gary Radtke
www.grmouthpieces.com

Dieter Z · Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:47 am Post subject:

I once drilled a Bach 5a cornet mouthpiece way open, since the original was way too tight blowing for me at that time.

RESULT: Worst intonation I ever had with any mouthpiece
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