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Can someone elaborate on what made Bix great?


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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:53 pm    Post subject: Can someone elaborate on what made Bix great? Reply with quote

Is he revered as a "great" player mostly because he happened to get a lot of press at the time?

I'm asking this as a serious question. I don't mean to slam anyone's hero, I guess I have a hard time hearing past awareness of later players. He didn't have a lot of range that I've heard, or brilliant technique. I hear Herbert L. Clarke's old recordings and I go "wow". I haven't heard anything Bix did that makes me say "wow". It's kind of like these old blues guitar player/singers - they all have a rudimentary sameness to me.

What made Bix stand out from his contemporaries?
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie Condon, quoted in Remembering Bix: A Memoir of the Jazz Age

"Finally Beiderbecke took out a silver cornet. He put it to his lips and blew a phrase. The sound came out like a girl saying yes."

Good enough for me.
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bunny
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.loc.gov/static/programs/national-recording-preservation-board/documents/SinginTheBlues.pdf
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoagy Carmichael has said that Bix's sound was enormous; that you don't get that on recordings. But that's technical as contrasted with musical and doesn't make a great musician.

What I respond to, musically, from Bix is his melodicism. He just has a wonderful way of using melodic ideas into his improvisations. "I'm Coming Virginia" is one of my all-time favorite solos.

Bix also gave listeners an alternative to Louis Armstrong's more direct and extroverted playing. It took the music out of New Orleans, yet kept a foot on N.O.

Your comments on technique remind me of criticism of Mile's work at one period of his playing when the music was introverted, relatively simple yet moving and profound. A show of technique does not equate to artistic content.

Regarding his press, I don't think journalism or media was that significant. By comparison, one can hardly say that he was given more attention in the media than Pops. Or, for that matter, to some musicians who were exponents of sweet-jazz style.

Lastly, keep in mind that our outlook is retrospective. Styles, technique, etc. may have changed our perspective and to truly appreciate the contributions of a predecessor, one has to include the context of the times. That is, what preceded Bix and what did he do to change, or give a different way of looking at, the music of its time.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bix was a genius. You don’t have to believe me but these were the words of Louis Armstrong who did not have a reputation of being generous in making compliments to collegue trumpet players. The problem is that Bix does not had nor need exceptional range or technic, there are just his unique notes. You have to do it with them. If you don’t hear it nobody can help you, it’s all there. Another point is that we only can enjoy Bix by the form of 78 rpm records with a 4\5 minutes span, in real life he played lots of long chorusses with a beautiful sound that for us is only partly recognisable
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of an aside, but Bix discovered his own fingerings and sometimes used, what we would call "alternate' fingerings, which had an influence on the tonal characteristics.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most players learn the horn and then the music. I believe Bix started out with the music in his head. He just made the horn do what he heard. Thus his unusual fingerings.

Even though the line about his sound being like “a girl saying yes” is a great quote, I think the best description is “he sounded like he was ringing a bell.”
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NevadaBigHorn
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most players learn the horn and then the music. I believe Bix started out with the music in his head. He just made the horn do what he heard. Thus his unusual fingerings.


Sounds like Chet Baker who, according to Irving Bush, would often push the wrong buttons but the right note would come out.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a way, he signaled the cooler jazz movement 20 - 30 years before it actually arrived, with the type of searching he did in his solos. He had only been playing a few years when the recordings took place. Also disappointed with himself, and nervous at the time. In other words, at various parties and less formal gigs, he played much longer solos with compositional ideas no one was familiar with then. According to the Berton book, a crowd of people would stop dancing, gather around, and stare at him..

A childhood story exists as a 4 (?) year old of a piano teacher the family hired. This lady got fed up and quit one day, by a refusal to learn music from written notes, playing etudes from ear and memory.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="NevadaBigHorn"]
Quote:
Sounds like Chet Baker who, according to Irving Bush, would often push the wrong buttons but the right note would come out.


Scott, where did you read that Bush quote. I either don't recall reading it, or did and forgot it. Thanks.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Fri May 10, 2019 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NevadaBigHorn
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]Scott, where did you read that Bush quote. I either don't recall reading it, or did and forgot it. Thanks.
Quote:


Take a look at this video. About 1:40 in. Enjoy! Side note: My father in law played in the 6th Army band with Irving Bush, Chet Baker and Herb Alpert.


Link

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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Scott. Interesting.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NevadaBigHorn wrote:

Sounds like Chet Baker who, according to Irving Bush, would often push the wrong buttons but the right note would come out.


Conversely, I often push the 'right' but the wrong note comes out!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was a kid I saw Diz at a local college. I don’t think he ever pressed the third valve. And to my inexperienced eyes it sure looked like he was just cycling back and forth between the first two valves on the fast stuff.

Decades later I still don’t understand what exactly I saw. But man...

So the alternative fingering thing attributed to Bix might be more than a myth.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a jazz purist or aficionado, even though I do a decent number of multi-hour solo improv gigs each year. I particularly love Bix, along with Chet Baker, and yes even Herb Alpert, because they made music that non-trumpet players and non-musicians loved to listen to. They also didn’t emphasize the physical aspects of our instrument, so their music is generally more pleasant and listenable (and sustainable by the player) for much longer periods. If I can manage just a tiny fraction of these artists’ achievements (and other greats like them), I will be a very happy camper.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming from an affluent family meant that his folks clearly did not tolerate the idea of a playing career, especially in 'jazz music'. One of the things done to prevent it was shipping him to Lake Forest military academy outside of Chicago. But.., their plans backfired when he realized he could leave campus at night, hop a train to town, and listen to a young Louis Armstrong (who he idolized) and others. These trips and lack of study got him thrown out of the Academy, but it lit a fire under him to keep playing.

Family..
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g37816-d117539-Reviews-Beiderbecke_Bed_and_Breakfast-Davenport_Iowa.html

Warner house..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Forest_Academy
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Croquethed wrote:
Eddie Condon, quoted in Remembering Bix: A Memoir of the Jazz Age

"Finally Beiderbecke took out a silver cornet. He put it to his lips and blew a phrase. The sound came out like a girl saying yes."

Good enough for me.


That famous quote! Recall that Bix suffered from a lung ailment. Playing trumpet (or cornet, as Bix did) while simultaneously trying to suppress a cough / trying not to choke, you could produce an effect like this - I did once, quite unintentionally. Nothing of the like got ever recorded by Bix in session.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the years I've seen a bunch of stuff that had been transcribed note for note for his stuff. I'm talking the whole band where parts are written out. I play a part and think, this can't be right. Then we all play and it all comes together. Does it sound like all the rest of the bands? No. Were the chords and melodic variations years ahead of their time? Yes. They were doing things that people hadn't thought of. Very innovative. Like many greats, he and they took music from other genres and included it into their music. So, listen to it. Play it. You'll get it.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to this.
The transitions are genius

https://youtu.be/jOo5BsN5VTc
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