How to pace practice time to prevent sore embouchure

[freimers]

Once you've overdone it and your embouchure muscles are sore, what are some good strategies for rest, easing back into practicing, pacing and prevention? I'm resting, etc., and it's getting better, but wondering how it happened as I was trying to pace myself but failed.

My problem I believe was not so much overblowing, pressure, etc., but I was having fun practicing and maybe just played too long. I was doing four 45 minute sessions a day and spacing it out playing in the morning, afternoon and evening. As a result, my last playing stopped around 10-11pm and I'd pick it up again around 8-9 am. Maybe not enough rest time in between? Maybe doing the harder strength training too early in the day? Maybe do a little of each during each session? Not sure, but I need to change it up and not sure what's best.

I'm getting back into playing, recently retired, and at 67 the muscles aren't recovering as quickly as they used to. I've got all day to play and enjoy playing. Trying to maximize the time.

Any advice?
_________________
S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn

[deleted_user_680e93b]

[Richard III]

I think people worry too much. Play until you are tired or your attention starts to fade. Go away. Play again when you feel like it. Repeat. Play music that is interesting. Play music that is difficult and challenges your weaknesses. I'm 63 and I play 2-4 sessions a day. Because I can. Retired now. Then there are band practices. That's always at least two hours. If it isn't fun, don't do it.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[Andy Del]

When you are sore, it is way too far. As already suggested, resting as you practice is a more sensible option. Even more so if one uses the resting time to think - about what you are working on.

In a 45 minute session (and I would rarely go for that long) there will be 20 minutes of silence. It may be setting my mind to the task, say breathing well as I begin to warm up (or play anything at all), it may be setting a tempo I want to play at. It may be listening to a piece while working on it. It may be finding the music, or recording, putting even the dog out for a toilet break after a long time singing along...

The best I have found is to mentally perform what is being practiced and making sure it is clear in the mind.

We have to pace ourselves ALL the time, not just on face and off face for a measured number of minutes - that is a guide only. I suspect the OP is overdoing things to a great degree

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[freimers]

Thanks Tom and Richard.

I was following Herseth's lead with trying not to play more than 45 minutes at a time and then rest at least an hour in between. 20 minutes might be a lot better. The issue then becomes how to break up what I'm playing. I'm starting out with Stamp and then going to Schlossberg, Davidson or Vizzutti, then studies/etudes, then solos/music. I have a tendency to spend too much time on the training stuff and never get to the real music, or, am too tired when I get to the music.

I like what you said Richard about not worrying, but I prefer Jack. So, what is 'tired' to a trumpet player? We're used to playing through being tired, it's what we do. I don't notice until it's too late.

I think pacing will become more of a non-issue as I get stronger. It's been many years since I've had the time to practice a lot and I just jumped right in.
_________________
S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn

[freimers]

Andy,

Agreed, more time spent on preparation, point well taken, thanks.

I forgot that I used to first sight read through pieces singing with just breathing, fingering and tonguing which I will start doing again. That should match up well with the rest as much as you play philosophy using the rest time to focus on playing as musically as possible.

One thing I am going to stop immediately, is watching embouchure videos and experimenting. My embouchure was OK, I think all I had to do was get back to the fundamentals and be patient waiting for the muscles to come back. I tried some things that didn't work and hurt.
_________________
S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn

[freimers]

Tom,

Regarding my trumpet list, thanks. I'm also working on my golf game and thought of Harvey Penick's advice to a hopeless hacker who asked him what he could do to feel better about his game. Answer: "Always play with clean balls"

I had a Bach Bb that was OK but for some reason I never really felt the love from a Bach like I did my old Benge 5x. I was forced to play Bach's to get orchestra jobs back in the day. A friend recommended Shires so I tried them out and traded for a CVP. The CVP feels and sounds a lot like the Benge to me but better in tune. I visited the Shires factory and really enjoyed the people and trying all their horns. So I decided to get a Shires C to match even though I liked my Conn Vintage One that I'm now selling. Got both Shires used but they're in great condition.

My playing isn't what it used to be (yet) but my trumpets are clean and shiny so I'm feeling good!
_________________
S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn

[Bill_Bumps]

[JoseLindE4]

1. Sing, play, repeat. Getting the horn off the face is built into the process.
2. Record yourself practicing a passage, listen back critically (taking notes if needed), and fix the problems. Again, rest is built in.
3. Listen to a player you admire play a passage, try to copy it (everything about it), repeat.

These approaches will not only keep you fresher, they’ll make your face time much more effective and you’ll progress more. No stopwatch needed, no need to worry about rest time. When your focus fades, go do something else and come back to it.

[JVL]

hello
flutter between sequences and sessions.
And maybe yes, for you, the last session is too late, and the 1st one probably too early.
best

[cgaiii]

[Billy B]

Play/rest as in a 20 second long tone followed by a 20 second rest.
One line of Clarke followed by an equal or greater amount of rest.

You will get mentally tired long before your chops give out.

Sore muscles are not a problem.
_________________
Bill Bergren

[deleted_user_680e93b]

[freimers]

All good ideas. Any golf instructor will tell you that just hitting more balls than the other guy won't make you the better player. But who doesn't just love banging through a bucket of balls and watching them soar away.

Once I've rested up, this is what I'm thinking for starters. 3 sessions instead of 4 and change it up a bit. I think I've been spending too much time on drills up front and pushed too hard practicing the music when already tired out.

#1
Stamp - 20 minutes
Rest - 20
Schlossberg/Davidson/Vizzutti - Limit to 20 minutes on daily drills.

#2
Solos, etudes, etc. Try singing, air playing, recording, listening/analyzing to make best use of the time.

#3
Flow and other studies, drills. Choose which ones based on how I'm feeling and just stop if tired.


Thank you!
_________________
S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn

[deleted_user_680e93b]

I was a 7 day a week golfer after i quit playing trumpet in the 80's. I practiced everyday and usually played 5 times a week, i worked nights and golf was cheap back then, many days playing 36 holes. I play once or twice a year now if i'm lucky but can still break 80 usually after hitting a couple of buckets of balls. My swing is grooved from years of practice.
I wish trumpet was the same, but if i only played twice a year on trumpet nobody including myself would want to listen. I don't think the 10,000 rep thing works for trumpet players. If you don't practice and play on a consistent basis your doomed !!

regards,

Tom

[Andy Del]

IT's great to see someone looking and thinking about how to improve and ten taking many different ideas on board to see what works and assimilate that into their work.

A couple of things I notice:

Trying to work like Bud is all well and good. For Bud. Bud, the majority of us are not. Adopting his concepts is the key. There is an amount of time to work which is optimal for each of us, just as there is a resting time.

Being prescriptive. In some things is good. Like measure twice, cut once. (Must remind the chippie when he arrives this morning. Or offer him my measuring gear. His must have come from a cheap discount place in another universe. But I digress) When dealing with small, delicate muscles on a daily basis, where . all manner of factors affect their performance, we need to be adaptive instead. Be able to change out what we are doing to take a step back, or forward, linger at a point. Repeat a few more times, or not. Same idea, different lick, or same lick, different idea.

In then end, we need to master the horn, not let it master us!

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[cgaiii]

Where is the like button for times like this?

Well stated Andy.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[NotQuiteFamous]

[freimers]

To NotSoFamous

It's hard not to think about strength training when you watch all the embouchure videos. I have a P.E.T.E., pencil drills, etc. I never thought about embouchure strength back in the 70's and 80's when I was playing a lot, it was more support. If my embouchure got tired practicing or playing marches for 5 hours I could be stiff the next day but a good night's sleep was all I needed. I never worried too much about playing too long or practicing too many hours. I was also 20 pounds lighter, running 25 miles a week, playing tennis and golf regularly. My breath control and overall strength was 10 times better.

I think I underestimated the benefit of the lip buzzing drill that Seymour Rosenfeld, my teacher from the Philadelphia Orchestra had me do every day. Quietly buzz a comfortable note like a staff G with a stop watch and keep the buzz even with a good tone for as long as you can, at least 60 seconds, at least 3 reps. I got it up to 120 seconds at best. My best right now is 75 so my breath control is 62.5% of what it used to be but improving. You have to keep the corners firm, middle relaxed and work harder on breath control to do this exercise. Mr. Rosenfeld said that this was the equivalent of a lot of hard playing without beating up your embouchure. It's what he needed to be able to switch easily to a week of Mahler after a month of Mozart. I'm going back to doing that every day, I think it's helping. Some of his other students thought it made their embouchure less flexible.

This is the first time I ever hurt my embouchure where I knew I pulled a muscle. I think age does have something to do with it. It's gotten a lot better, I took a couple days off and am taking it easy when I do play, but I still feel it a little after a couple of weeks.

I attended a master class with Vince DiMartino at ITG a couple of years ago on senior trumpet playing. Best quote was "I can do EVERYTHING I used to do, just not as long..."
_________________
S.E. Shires CVP Bb Trumpet
S.E. Shires 5S C Trumpet
S.E. Shires CN7A Cornet
Getzen 4-Valve Flugelhorn