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Plating on the inside of horns...


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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:30 am    Post subject: Plating on the inside of horns... Reply with quote

Just wondering if any of you have had experience with having a horn plated and your preferences for avoiding any plating getting on the inside of the horn, particularly the leadpipe section.

Leigh McKinney at Eclipse Trumpets sent me pictures when he was building my B-flat a C, and he uses "bungs" (a new word added to my vocabulary), which are form-fitted plastic "stops" that prevent the plating from going in the tubes of the leadpipe and slide tubes. I heard yesterday that Anderson Silver Plating does not allow them in order to avoid liability if they were to come off in the process. Also, ones that come loose could mess up the tanks. And he said that most of any plating that would deposit on the inside of the horn during that 15-minute period or so would be minimal.

I traded a horn with another TH member 2-3 years ago that expressed concern about this, that he did not want any plating to deposit on the inside of his leadpipe, particularly. I do feel that at some point in our horn searches, our honing in on what we want and don't want in a horn can matter. Just interested to get feedback from you guys/gals, and other possible options in the U.S. aside from Anderson if we decide we want "bungs" used. (I like that word...kind of rolls off the tongue!)


Last edited by dstpt on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like a non-issue to me.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The people I've talked to that know have also told me that no significant amount of nickel or silver gets plated to inside surfaces of pipes or valve ports when no plugs are used.
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Adam R. Getzen
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We plug our horns on the receiver and bell as well as both ends of the valves. Water keys are also plugged. On new horns we plate horns with the slides in. If I wanted to plate the inside of the horn effectively I would have to pump solution through the horn while plating to make sure to get the proper adhesion.

Plating is fine inside the lead pipe if done properly but has no place on inner slide tubes, valve casings, etc.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the Schilke factory we observed a bit of flakey plating inside the leadpipes of new horns. We routinely brushed out the leadpipes to prevent bunging up the valves. I think we used a copper gun bore brush.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term 'bung' typically is in reference to a plug that is used to seal a hole in the side of a (usually) wooden barrel. That hole in the barrel is where a spigot would be placed.

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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recent development this week: I now definitely need a plater that will permit bungs. Anderson does not. Getzen/Edwards uses bungs, but will only (silver) plate their own horns. I guess Kanstul did allow this, but I don't think BAC is up and running with that reportedly acquired equipment, yet. Do any of you know any platers in the U.S. that will allow a horn to be prepped with bungs and shipped directly to be silver plated? Leigh McKinney is sending to me a rimless ("Solar" model) bell made from Britannia silver to have soldered to a fairly new Eclipse Enigma Bb (that is already silver plated). Shipping to the UK is costly (insurance and whatever import fee). I much prefer finding such a plater in order to avoid getting silver on the inside of valve casings and tubing and incurring the added expense and time of having the silver deposit honed out of valve casings, as minute as it may be. Leigh said the horn should be in the tank for about 25-30 minutes vs. the normal 45 minutes or so. This is to place only 10-15 microns of silver on the bell for protection; any deposited on the body of the horn will not matter, according to him. Platers suggestions, anyone?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Larry Souza replayed my horn he told me part of the service he provided was to plug the slides and valves before sending it to Anderson’s. This was at least 15 years ago so perhaps they have changed?

Edit: from the FAQ on the Anderson page “Can I mask off engraving and parts I do not want plated?
Since it requires special tape to "mask off" a part of an instrument, we prefer that you indicate to us which places you do not want plated, and we will mask it off with our plating tape. Also, when packing, do not put tape on any place that you want plated or stripped”

So perhaps they expect to do the masking/plugging?
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had some work done on a few horns recently by Tom Green (greensbuffing.com), who lives in Elkhart, IN, only a few miles from Anderson Silver Plating and who worked there for a number of years before branching off to form his own instrument repair business. I asked him a few weeks ago about whether Anderson would allow bungs, and he said that they do not. He explained that they do not want to be held liable if one falls off into the tank during treatment and plating gets inside the horn. They also don't want them falling off in the tank and messing up the tank (I guess by getting caught in a drain, maybe?).

They will mask, but they will not plug. The process after plating then requires removal of silver plate from within the walls of the valve casings. The way Leigh McKinney was taught 33 years ago was always to prep with bungs (and plating tape, of course, on inner [male] slides).

This week I viewed this Edwards Trumpets video on YouTube from 2003...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yv4yPGsNuQ

In the above video, we can clearly see bungs in the tube openings, so I wrote Edwards an email two days ago and received this response:

"We do our own silver plating-we do not offer gold plating. Yes, we plug the horns when we plate to prevent them from floating to the top of the tank. We only do work on our instruments, Edwards or Getzen."

This is a tangential question, but maybe Adam (Getzen) can clarify: Plugging a horn will keep it from floating to the top of the tank? Yes, we see that happening in the video, although, I have to admit, it seems like the opposite would happen, that the air sealed inside a plugged horn would cause it to float. Obviously in this case, the weight of the horn is enough to keep it from floating, but still, it does not seem like the horn would float when unplugged, either, that the weight (~2 lbs.) would still keep it from floating. Just curious: Can you explain/confirm that a horn would indeed float without bungs and why? I guess Anderson has a special method to keep them from floating? I'm glad that plugging keeps them from floating. Just curious about all of this.

Back to my conundrum: Are there any U.S. platers that can safely do what I'm asking?
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Gottfried Reiche
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious...what exactly is your concern? What specifically are you trying to avoid, and why?
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gottfried Reiche wrote:
I'm curious...what exactly is your concern? What specifically are you trying to avoid, and why?

If it is plugged (after prep by me at home...chem-cleaned/degreased in a sonic cleaner), then the horn is sent to the plater, dipped in the pre-wash solution, rinsed, put in the plating solution for 25-30 minutes, rinsed, patted/hung to dry(?), and returned to me, where I can then rinse and thoroughly swab dry the horn, and relubricate. Done deal. If plating gets on the inside of the valve casings, then I will have to have a professional brass tech do before and after work, costing more money and requiring considerably more time. Just a preferred route, if possible, seeing that I've already invested substantially in the purchase of a Britannia silver bell and new Eclipse, as well as other horn projects at present. Not so much a "concern"...just trying to save time and money if possible.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think it advantageous to plate the inside of a horn, especially the leadpipe to prevent red rot.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
I would think it advantageous to plate the inside of a horn, especially the leadpipe to prevent red rot.

except
Ed Kennedy wrote:
At the Schilke factory we observed a bit of flakey plating inside the leadpipes of new horns. We routinely brushed out the leadpipes to prevent bunging up the valves. I think we used a copper gun bore brush.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
The people I've talked to that know have also told me that no significant amount of nickel or silver gets plated to inside surfaces of pipes or valve ports when no plugs are used.


Others have confirmed the same with me recently, that not much plating "forms" on the inside of a horn during the normal plating process at Anderson (which is without bungs). Charlie Melk had told me virtually the same a few years ago regarding another project I was having him do at the time. I am not sure how manufacturers handle all of this for brand new horns, except from what I've seen on the Edwards video.

For my situation, I understand that a brass tech would have to do "clean up" after plating and before reassembly...lapping of the inner (female) portions of slides and the valve casings…to my knowledge, anyway. I have the lapping compound from Ferree's and have lapped slides with it before. Using it involves quite a bit of clean up afterward to be sure there is no residual compound. I don’t mind lapping slides, but lapping valve casings is not something that I'd feel comfortable doing. With a place like Anderson, there may be a tiny bit of silver deposit afterward, but I still don’t feel comfortable with that kind of risk on valve casings.

For the present project, I can have the bell switched out by a local brass tech and then do all of the other prep work to have the horn silver plated on my own. Any number of local brass techs could do this, but they don't have time to do all of the prep work due to their summer school instrument repair load. I could send it to a number of fine brass techs to do all of the work, but that means spending more time and money to see the end result. Anderson is getting ready to do their semi-annual shutdown for two weeks to clean tanks. This is one of the reasons I'm looking for another plater. Since I live in a big city, I’ve even started calling plating companies that specifically do silver plating, and yes, I am aware that the slightest mention of this opens a whole new can of worms among trumpet players. Haha!

As I understand, to get plating to form throughout the inside of a horn, there would have to be some sort of circulatory system set up to "force" or "move" the silver through it. I don't think any place typically does this...just my guess. To avoid red rot in a leadpipe, the best solution, as I understand it, is to use nickel silver instead of brass as the material. However, I'm told that it is more difficult to manage and thus more costly. I think this is why most manufacturers today have settled on using brass.


Last edited by dstpt on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gottfried Reiche
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professional Opinion:

If you are so concerned about all of this, then it is certainly worth the time and money to have it done correctly, to the highest standards. Send it to Tom Greene, have him do the prep, and plating at Anderson's.

Right after the shut down is the best time to have it plated there anyway...you get the freshest stuff. I've seen horns done right before the shutdown, and right after, and the difference is astounding.

GR
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gottfried Reiche wrote:
Professional Opinion:

If you are so concerned about all of this, then it is certainly worth the time and money to have it done correctly, to the highest standards. Send it to Tom Greene, have him do the prep, and plating at Anderson's.

Right after the shut down is the best time to have it plated there anyway...you get the freshest stuff. I've seen horns done right before the shutdown, and right after, and the difference is astounding.

GR

As soon as I get the bell, I may have it installed locally and may send it to ASP after their semi-annual tank-cleaning. Thanks for sharing!


Last edited by dstpt on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Speed
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is potentially a big deal.

Bach replaced a 190S37 under warranty for me after it turned out that the valve problems I was having was caused by silver plating on the inside of the tubing flaking off and getting in the valve cluster. My few-weeks-old valves looked like I'd lubricated them with sand.

Running a camera through the tubing left no doubt that the interior flaking was the source of the problem.

It appears to me that it's an isolated problem. Let's face it, a lot of trumpets come out of Anderson's with interior plating that doesn't flake off.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible that you could specify to Anderson S.P. that you want less than normal time in the plating bath and get what you want.

I've found that if a horn is degreased thoroughly before going to ASP, there's rarely a "flaking" problem. The plating adheres really well and is too thin to cause valve problems. That's one of the things that can happen with new factory instruments - inadequate degreasing and plating flaking off on the inside.

Good to hear Tom Green is still in business - he did a fabulous lacquer job on a horn I restored.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
It's possible that you could specify to Anderson S.P. that you want less than normal time in the plating bath and get what you want.

I've found that if a horn is degreased thoroughly before going to ASP, there's rarely a "flaking" problem. The plating adheres really well and is too thin to cause valve problems. That's one of the things that can happen with new factory instruments - inadequate degreasing and plating flaking off on the inside.

Good to hear Tom Green is still in business - he did a fabulous lacquer job on a horn I restored.
-Lionel

Thanks for this tip, Lionel! I heard that new horns plated without bungs almost always require hand lapping of pistons and slides, but horns that have been used often have slightly looser tolerances and lapping is rarely required. I was advised to have 10 to 15 microns of silver added, but another has said that that is close to the norm at ASP, so I may be able to just have the bell soldered on by a local brass tech and sent off to ASP to do the silver...unless...I get a call back from a local plating company and decide to roll the dice!!! Ha! Worse case scenario is I end up still sending off to have it stripped and then do a bead blasted silver finish on the body and bright silver on the bell (all detachable parts are already gold plated). Life is an adventure!


Last edited by dstpt on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Adam R. Getzen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
Recent development this week: I now definitely need a plater that will permit bungs. Anderson does not. Getzen/Edwards uses bungs, but will only (silver) plate their own horns. I guess Kanstul did allow this, but I don't think BAC is up and running with that reportedly acquired equipment, yet. Do any of you know any platers in the U.S. that will allow a horn to be prepped with bungs and shipped directly to be silver plated? Leigh McKinney is sending to me a rimless ("Solar" model) bell made from Britannia silver to have soldered to a fairly new Eclipse Enigma Bb (that is already silver plated). Shipping to the UK is costly (insurance and whatever import fee). I much prefer finding such a plater in order to avoid getting silver on the inside of valve casings and tubing and incurring the added expense and time of having the silver deposit honed out of valve casings, as minute as it may be. Leigh said the horn should be in the tank for about 25-30 minutes vs. the normal 45 minutes or so. This is to place only 10-15 microns of silver on the bell for protection; any deposited on the body of the horn will not matter, according to him. Platers suggestions, anyone?


The info Leigh gave you about times doesn't mean much as different tank setups plate at different rates. We plate horns for Fred Powell. He does all the prep work and we clean/plate them.

The reason we very rarely plate other makes is because if we wreck someone's Bach or Schilke or whatever we aren't in the position to repair them as they were.
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