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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:32 pm Post subject: Sweet Cornet Sound |
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In a world of loud trumpets, screaming trumpets, cornets used for bright traditional jazz and all kinds of variants, is there a place for a sweet cornet sound?
I just bought a Conn Wonder cornet from around 1886. I'm not sure of the bore dimensions but it definitely plays like a small bore. Very delicate sound and very sweet. Is there a place for cornets like this in today's music?
[img]ConnWonder1 by genevie7, on Flickr[/img]
[img]ConnWonder2 by genevie7, on Flickr[/img] _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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If there isn't, there ought to be.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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bike&ed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1834
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yes there absolutely is, I use a very similar design (modern M/ML bore Yamaha shepherds crook cornet) for 8-12 paid gigs a month. Whether I’m using a deep mpc to be mellow, or a shallow mpc to sound trumpety, it just works. No volume issues at small venues, and at big venues I just point the bell into the microphone and let modern amplification do its magic. |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:36 pm Post subject: Sweet Cornet Sound |
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A couple nights ago at work (I do overnights in a group home for developmentally disabled men) I pulled up some audios by the Navy Band I believe. There was a cornet solo on there Neried which the player performed flawlessly, of course. The horn just had that sweet, round cornet sound. It was like taking a trip back in time to when there were more cornets than trumpets. I love both horns, but like the guy says in "Music Man", it's them peck horns that does it! Great looking piece of history. Thanks for the thread. _________________ "There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 5:42 am Post subject: |
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bike&ed wrote: | Yes there absolutely is, I use a very similar design (modern M/ML bore Yamaha shepherds crook cornet) for 8-12 paid gigs a month. Whether I’m using a deep mpc to be mellow, or a shallow mpc to sound trumpety, it just works. No volume issues at small venues, and at big venues I just point the bell into the microphone and let modern amplification do its magic. |
I tried a bunch of mouthpieces yesterday. I have a modern Conn 3 that it likes but for that original, sweet sound, a period mouthpiece is still the way to go. I'm going to try it out with my trad jazz band and see what everyone thinks. I should point out that we also have an equally old Conn Eb tuba and a Conn Bb baritone in the band. We are a bunch of Conn men.
Thanks for the encouragement. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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JMWTpt Regular Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 40 Location: Concord Township Ohio
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 5:58 am Post subject: Sweet Cornet Sound |
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I really love that sound. For cornets, I have a 1911 Boston 3 Star, a Buescher 400 long cornet, and a Bach 184 Strad. The latter two are totally different than the Boston. I have Wick 4B, Curry 3DC, Bach 3 (no letter) and a Bach 6 (no letter) mouthpieces. I've used the Boston with the Curry and Bach 3 in church to good effect. The music seems more personal with that horn. I'm still looking for the sweet cornet sound.
Good post,
John |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Sweet Cornet Sound |
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JMWTpt wrote: | I really love that sound. For cornets, I have a 1911 Boston 3 Star, a Buescher 400 long cornet, and a Bach 184 Strad. The latter two are totally different than the Boston. I have Wick 4B, Curry 3DC, Bach 3 (no letter) and a Bach 6 (no letter) mouthpieces. I've used the Boston with the Curry and Bach 3 in church to good effect. The music seems more personal with that horn. I'm still looking for the sweet cornet sound.
Good post,
John |
I was just in a store where they have a gold plated Boston presentation model with fabulous engraving. It has the original case with all the crooks and tuning bits to be in C, Bb and A. Also it has the original mouthpiece. Just an amazing find. Price? $3000. Too rich for me but it was nice to look at and hold. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
On a vaguely related note, I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet from the mid 60s. Not being particularly up on vintage cornet sounds and vintage cornets, and cornet-wise being a brass bander, I'm not really sure how its sound compares to the Conn Wonder.
Probably on a slightly different topic and I apologise to the OP if he feels I'm going off on a tangent, but as we have discussed on here before, the brass band cornet sound (in addition to the sound of the other brass band instruments) has gotten bigger and broader. As an example if you are unfamiliar with what I am talkng about, if you compare the sound of James (Jim) Shepherd (Principal cornet of Black Dyke 1963-1973) to Richard Marshall (current Principal Cornet of Black Dyke), you'll hear what I mean.
Off hand I'm not sure what cornet Jim Shepherd played, but I can tell that the sound of my Boosey and Hawkes Imperial is from that era. Now to get to my point, to my ears the Imperial sounds small and sweet and although not really vintage, I like it for vintage cornet solos. It however does not work well in a modern brass band, owing more probably to its smaller dynamic range than its smaller sound. On the couple of occasions that I have taken it to my brass band, I've found it ok for solos, as its smaller brighter sound seems to project over the band ok, but it just doesn't work in the section at louder dynamics, as it is absolutely buried by the louder broader sound of the rest of the section on modern brass band cornets.
So in a modern brass band, there probably is no room anymore for a smaller sounding cornet, as it doesn't blend with the other cornets, but for solo playing, yes, I definitely think there is room for a sweet cornet sound, and although of course bigger and broader, the modern brass band cornet sound is still sweet.
This is just my 2p and of course YMMV.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:21 am Post subject: |
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I sure wish that more players (actually, any at all!) that are in our community concert band were cornet players. Couple of years ago I started bringing a cornet to rehearsal, and found that I was just buried in the trumpet section. I could barely hear myself! But I live in an area that likes "higher, louder, and faster"...it seems! Our director seems to be constantly admonishing the trumpet players to "bring it out", as he puts it. I wish he would encourage the rest of the band to bring it down instead. As a defense mechanism, I usually swap out playing Euphonium and trumpet from year to year. On Euph, I am usually the only player, so I CAN hear myself!
I grew up in the period where many of the local band directors in the southeast would require (no kidding!) concert band players to play cornet. It certainly did make it easier to balance. I remember one of my colleagues where I was teaching down in Alabama that would not permit students to use anything but cornets! Boy, that would go over like a lead balloon nowadays! I remember seeing an incredible high school marching band from a school in Kentucky back in the late 1970's at a prestigious regional marching competition that had ONLY cornets. What a nice sound!
That's a nice old Conn you have there. My Conns are Director models, and not nearly as nice as yours, although I have a 1970 Japanese Director that is in pristine condition. I use it a lot. My old '65 Coprion Director I use as a travel horn in my suitcase when I go somewhere for a few days.
A few years ago, I got on a "jag" collecting King Master models, and I currently own 5 of them. At the time, you could get them at very good prices (not so now). I have a couple that are over 100 years old now, and although the valves could use rebuilding, they still play great! One I got for less than 100 bucks came with a full set of "A" slides, and even an original lyre, with an original case with pockets for the additional slides! Cool! They are "sweet" sounding instruments. Too bad, as I said above, that they would have no company in a section around here!
Enjoy!
Dave |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I sure wish that more players (actually, any at all!) that are in our community concert band were cornet players. Couple of years ago I started bringing a cornet to rehearsal, and found that I was just buried in the trumpet section. I could barely hear myself! But I live in an area that likes "higher, louder, and faster"...it seems! Our director seems to be constantly admonishing the trumpet players to "bring it out", as he puts it. I wish he would encourage the rest of the band to bring it down instead. As a defense mechanism, I usually swap out playing Euphonium and trumpet from year to year. On Euph, I am usually the only player, so I CAN hear myself! |
I used to play cornet in our community concert band and the projection issue came up all the time. I didn't think I could be heard. In reality the balance was fine. But I either played a modern BBB style cornet or a Conn 80A (which really projects). Eventually I switched to french horn in the band. There are just three of us and we can all hear each other and have a very balanced sound.
I think euphonium is a beautiful sounding instrument. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | So in a modern brass band, there probably is no room anymore for a smaller sounding cornet, as it doesn't blend with the other cornets, but for solo playing, yes, I definitely think there is room for a sweet cornet sound, and although of course bigger and broader, the modern brass band cornet sound is still sweet. |
Yes Lou, there has been such a change in the BBB sound concept. That old sweet sound of yesteryear was such a pleasure to listen to. I would love to hear that in a modern band. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1459 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Quote: | So in a modern brass band, there probably is no room anymore for a smaller sounding cornet, as it doesn't blend with the other cornets, but for solo playing, yes, I definitely think there is room for a sweet cornet sound, and although of course bigger and broader, the modern brass band cornet sound is still sweet. |
Yes Lou, there has been such a change in the BBB sound concept. That old sweet sound of yesteryear was such a pleasure to listen to. I would love to hear that in a modern band. | https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/index.php
Amen to that! Probably a sentimentalist I just love the sound of "Cornet Carillion" played by say the Men of Brass (sorry metoo..): https:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXSVDbuwVnU
I can easily recall us rehearsing one sunny evening when Harry Mortimer was our guest long long time ago. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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EricV Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jul 2011 Posts: 227 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
On a vaguely related note, I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet from the mid 60s. Not being particularly up on vintage cornet sounds and vintage cornets, and cornet-wise being a brass bander, I'm not really sure how its sound compares to the Conn Wonder.
Probably on a slightly different topic and I apologise to the OP if he feels I'm going off on a tangent, but as we have discussed on here before, the brass band cornet sound (in addition to the sound of the other brass band instruments) has gotten bigger and broader. As an example if you are unfamiliar with what I am talkng about, if you compare the sound of James (Jim) Shepherd (Principal cornet of Black Dyke 1963-1973) to Richard Marshall (current Principal Cornet of Black Dyke), you'll hear what I mean.
Off hand I'm not sure what cornet Jim Shepherd played, but I can tell that the sound of my Boosey and Hawkes Imperial is from that era. Now to get to my point, to my ears the Imperial sounds small and sweet and although not really vintage, I like it for vintage cornet solos. It however does not work well in a modern brass band, owing more probably to its smaller dynamic range than its smaller sound. On the couple of occasions that I have taken it to my brass band, I've found it ok for solos, as its smaller brighter sound seems to project over the band ok, but it just doesn't work in the section at louder dynamics, as it is absolutely buried by the louder broader sound of the rest of the section on modern brass band cornets.
So in a modern brass band, there probably is no room anymore for a smaller sounding cornet, as it doesn't blend with the other cornets, but for solo playing, yes, I definitely think there is room for a sweet cornet sound, and although of course bigger and broader, the modern brass band cornet sound is still sweet.
This is just my 2p and of course YMMV.
All the best
Lou |
Louise,
I have the same cornet from the 60's era, and what suprises me is how good the valves are, fast, light and smooth even with little attention. Agree about the sound great for the old air varie solos but not general band playing.
cheers
Eric _________________ CG Benge trumpet
Yamaha Xeno Cornet |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:13 pm Post subject: Sweet Cornet Sound |
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I already commented in here but there have been some wonderful comments added that I agree with. That Conn horn is a thing of beauty. I hope that the history of the cornet is ongoing instead of waning because of the evolution of music. I went to a local Brass group concert on Sunday night where I live. I work when they practice and it has been that way, so now I am just a fan. Great concert, great mix of music. They have six trumpets, and two flugels that also double on trumpet at times. They all, men and women, have that trumpet bravado that I like, but you know there were a couple selections that would have been much, much better if they had cornets to play them with. I am thinking of Sousa's "The Thunderer" and a medley of Stephen Foster songs. It was all great, but those two selections would have been sweet and round if played on cornet. I always favored the open and projecting trumpets and loved my 36b Conn and my Benge 5 but the most fun playing was with a Getzen Eterna, and a Schilke long model cornet. I also agree that the euphonium is one sweet sounding horn. _________________ "There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Just listen to Warren Vache on cornet. The man is an absolute beast on this instrument. A true genius who has flown under the radar for over 40 years. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Bix sounded sweet to me. Big but sweet. He had a Conn New Wonder. I have a New Wonder. He sounded exactly like Bix. I don't sound exactly like Bix. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:10 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Bix sounded sweet to me. Big but sweet. He had a Conn New Wonder. I have a New Wonder. He sounded exactly like Bix. I don't sound exactly like Bix. |
If you were playing using the same mouthpiece, you would sound just like him. Isn't that how it works? _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Quote: | So in a modern brass band, there probably is no room anymore for a smaller sounding cornet, as it doesn't blend with the other cornets, but for solo playing, yes, I definitely think there is room for a sweet cornet sound, and although of course bigger and broader, the modern brass band cornet sound is still sweet. |
Yes Lou, there has been such a change in the BBB sound concept. That old sweet sound of yesteryear was such a pleasure to listen to. I would love to hear that in a modern band. |
Hi Richard III
Yes, me too.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:23 am Post subject: |
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EricV wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
On a vaguely related note, I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet from the mid 60s. Not being particularly up on vintage cornet sounds and vintage cornets, and cornet-wise being a brass bander, I'm not really sure how its sound compares to the Conn Wonder.
Probably on a slightly different topic and I apologise to the OP if he feels I'm going off on a tangent, but as we have discussed on here before, the brass band cornet sound (in addition to the sound of the other brass band instruments) has gotten bigger and broader. As an example if you are unfamiliar with what I am talkng about, if you compare the sound of James (Jim) Shepherd (Principal cornet of Black Dyke 1963-1973) to Richard Marshall (current Principal Cornet of Black Dyke), you'll hear what I mean.
Off hand I'm not sure what cornet Jim Shepherd played, but I can tell that the sound of my Boosey and Hawkes Imperial is from that era. Now to get to my point, to my ears the Imperial sounds small and sweet and although not really vintage, I like it for vintage cornet solos. It however does not work well in a modern brass band, owing more probably to its smaller dynamic range than its smaller sound. On the couple of occasions that I have taken it to my brass band, I've found it ok for solos, as its smaller brighter sound seems to project over the band ok, but it just doesn't work in the section at louder dynamics, as it is absolutely buried by the louder broader sound of the rest of the section on modern brass band cornets.
So in a modern brass band, there probably is no room anymore for a smaller sounding cornet, as it doesn't blend with the other cornets, but for solo playing, yes, I definitely think there is room for a sweet cornet sound, and although of course bigger and broader, the modern brass band cornet sound is still sweet.
This is just my 2p and of course YMMV.
All the best
Lou |
Louise,
I have the same cornet from the 60's era, and what suprises me is how good the valves are, fast, light and smooth even with little attention. Agree about the sound great for the old air varie solos but not general band playing.
cheers
Eric |
Hi Eric
Thanks very much. My Imperial also has very good valves, but the first one is very noisy. I paid very little for mine from a brass repairer. As you know, these cornets have springs that extend rather than compress, when the valves are pressed down, with a bar style metal valve guide. Although I can't see anything wrong and the repairer clearly didn't do anything about it, the first valve makes a metallic ticking sound everytime you press it down. I can hear it whilst playing this cornet, but no one has mentioned it, so maybe it is annoying rather than particularly impeding.
Take care
Lou
P.S. I notice from your signature that your main cornet is a Yamaha Xeno, like me. We must have the same taste in cornets lol. _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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EricV Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jul 2011 Posts: 227 Location: Australia
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Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Lou,
Shame about the clicking but as you say its probably just annoying if no one else seems to notice.
Re the cornet that Jim Shepherd played in the 60's, i know that Black Dyke and CWS Manchester were among the first bands to convert to low pitch and they used Besson International cornets around 1966,
My Zeno is great, funny though i have just started playing with another band (groan says my wife....lol) and they have given me a 2 year old hardly used sovereign to try, and i think i prefer my sound on the Zeno, whilst the Besson is great in many ways, im just not sure its any better for me than the Zeno.
Happy banding
Cheers
EricV _________________ CG Benge trumpet
Yamaha Xeno Cornet |
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