Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:25 am Post subject:
INTJ, did Ericsson address the opposite, that some people have areas that they can't excel in, no matter what they do? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
INTJ, did Ericsson address the opposite, that some people have areas that they can't excel in, no matter what they do?
I don’t remember that other than certain extreme physical characteristics. Like a 5’ 4” 120 lb guy will never be an offensive lineman, and a 6’ 5” 300 pounder will never be a jockey. Ericsson’s examples were primarily musicians and chess players, with a little top gun thrown in. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:02 pm Post subject:
gabriel127 wrote:
Hey, look even on American Idol, the crowds go wild when a singer goes big toward the end of a tune and sings the high notes.
And the judges have commented on that many times, going for the big notes.
Basses (males) and altos (females) wish they could do it. They can't, so they stay within themselves, but you know they wish they could do it.
I can tell you as a someone who sang bass and also doubled on tuba, the yardstick points in the other direction: Who is the bassiest bass? Who has the best command of the low register?
Check this out from Sing Off and the audience and judges' reaction on the last note:
Thanks Tpt_Guy. The band I perform the most with has a singer who is quite reminiscent of that bass singer, shockingly huge range up and down, and yet he's a very thin fellow, very different from the 'basso profundo=big guy' stereotype.
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:08 am Post subject:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:
Hey, look even on American Idol, the crowds go wild when a singer goes big toward the end of a tune and sings the high notes.
And the judges have commented on that many times, going for the big notes.
Basses (males) and altos (females) wish they could do it. They can't, so they stay within themselves, but you know they wish they could do it.
I can tell you as a someone who sang bass and also doubled on tuba, the yardstick points in the other direction: Who is the bassiest bass? Who has the best command of the low register?
Check this out from Sing Off and the audience and judges' reaction on the last note:
Granted, microphones helped, but you get the point.
Yeah, OK, well, the next time you see a guy on American Idol with a basso profundo voice, let me know.
Thus far: 17 seasons. Not one basso profundo has made it to the top 20, and never mind the top 20, I've never even seen one on the show. - Case closed.
Is there a trumpet player who plays or played the bass trumpet that has reached the popularity/fame/notoriety of Maynard Ferguson? -Case closed.
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:35 am Post subject:
gabriel127 wrote:
Thus far: 17 seasons. Not one basso profundo has made it to the top 20, and never mind the top 20, I've never even seen one on the show. - Case closed.
Is there a trumpet player who plays or played the bass trumpet that has reached the popularity/fame/notoriety of Maynard Ferguson? -Case closed.
You are very eager to close cases.
Your example of the bass trumpet ... ok, let's keep this nice.
Maybe more to the point, are there any trumpetplayers that have reached the popularity/fame/notoriety of Maynard Ferguson without screaming above high G?
Sure, what to think of Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis?
How did they get there? Maybe in the first place by being the best theme players around + sound + style + creativity + form. Ever heard of, or even listened to Bix? He is a legend with the highest note recorded being a B under high C I believe.
I have nothing against MF, must have been a great guy, but LA, MD and even Bix are of a complete other stature, sorry for you.
And I know that the great Louis had to play for commercial reasons hundreds of high C's.
And the reaction of the public on high screaming or other virtuosity is ok but has nothing to do with musical content. I have seen rock guitarists getting thundering applause for some virtuoso tricks a modest classical guitar student plays everyday as practice.
Case closed.
Last edited by delano on Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:05 am; edited 4 times in total
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3302 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:58 am Post subject:
Having something SPECIAL is what sets the 'greats' apart from the herd.
It can be high notes, personality, musicality, etc.
Perhaps the desire to extend the high range is because the other special qualities aren't thought to be obtainable (or aren't recognized).
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 613 Location: Oakville, CT
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:38 am Post subject:
Maynard, Maynard, Maynard. So what.
How about the guys who play superbly as part of a whole, guys like Wayne Jackson with the Stax bands, Ben Cauley, Jim Price, Steve Madaio, and Greg Adams? Or contemporary players like Scott Frock and his work with Nathaniel Rateliff, Sturgill Simpson and Jimmy Horn's band down in New Orleans?
Sensibly extending range is something one might think every trumpet player would pursue in daily practice, and we play what we can play. But to dismiss great horn lines like Madaio's riffs on Lynryrd Skynyrd's Second Helpings album or Price and Bobby Keys's work on Exile On Main Street does the idea of listening to and for every part in a piece of music a disservice.
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:13 am Post subject:
I don’t see anyone dismissing great jazz solos or great section playing. But I do see some dismiss high note playing, and that is silly. It’s hard to have enough time to develop all aspects of trumpet playing to a virtuoso level, so guys pick what appeals to them most. For me, a screamin’ lead or tasteful high note accent beats complex bebop lines every time in terms of what I like in my own playing. That doesn’t mean I am not impressed with great solos or even great section playing. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:40 am Post subject:
gabriel127 wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
I can tell you as a someone who sang bass and also doubled on tuba, the yardstick points in the other direction: Who is the bassiest bass? Who has the best command of the low register?
Check this out from Sing Off and the audience and judges' reaction on the last note:
Granted, microphones helped, but you get the point.
Yeah, OK, well, the next time you see a guy on American Idol with a basso profundo voice, let me know.
No reason to get nasty. I was just illustrating a point - it's not just high notes.
Thus far: 17 seasons. Not one basso profundo has made it to the top 20, and never mind the top 20, I've never even seen one on the show. - Case closed.
You are correct. There haven't been any basso profundo singers on American Idol, but the reason is the music chosen is absolutely NOT suitable and the judges simply aren't looking for one. The show is looking for the next pop star who can successfully sing the next factory-produced single and make money for record companies. A capella is a completely different animal.
Is there a trumpet player who plays or played the bass trumpet that has reached the popularity/fame/notoriety of Maynard Ferguson? -Case closed.
_________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:52 am Post subject:
Croquethed wrote:
How about the guys who play superbly as part of a whole, guys like . . . Jim Price . . . or Price and Bobby Keys's work on Exile On Main Street
Jim Price, to me, is one of those, "who would've known" guys. Lived across the hall from me my first year at UNT. Still got a third stream album with his name written on it. At that time was doing work with his uncle, a C&W star. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:53 am Post subject:
INTJ wrote:
I don’t see anyone dismissing great jazz solos or great section playing. But I do see some dismiss high note playing, and that is silly. It’s hard to have enough time to develop all aspects of trumpet playing to a virtuoso level, so guys pick what appeals to them most. For me, a screamin’ lead or tasteful high note accent beats complex bebop lines every time in terms of what I like in my own playing. That doesn’t mean I am not impressed with great solos or even great section playing.
Same goes for me, at least as an audience member. I'm not a jazz player, but I enjoy listening to a great jazz solo. I don't generally like bebop.
What gets me going is these people who claim to know every trumpet player's secret desire to play screaming high, then justify their own viewpoints by basically calling those who don't desire a screaming high range a bunch of liars.
High notes really aren't all that important. We can still play music without them. Could you imagine music where, song after song, the whole section or even the whole band only plays in their stratospheric register? Who would even want to listen to that? _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 316 Location: Traverse City, MI
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:59 am Post subject:
I do believe that most of us would like the ability to play high. But it is a stereo type of our instrument that a good player has to play high. I play in a seven piece band that has two trumpets and every time we play a gig, some audience member says "I bet this band is loud will all those brass instruments". When in fact, we are never any louder than the guitar player and drummer. Playing wind instruments and listening to good wind players can be a pleasing experience. _________________ Bill
Bb Burbank Benge L
Bb Schilke B1
Olds Silverstar Flugel
King Silvertone Cornet
... guys like Wayne Jackson with the Stax bands ...
Wayne has always been one of my musical role models. He was a very successful player. Any fan of old soul music knows many of his licks, without necessarily knowing who he was. He played what is probably the most famous three-note trumpet solo in pop music. I think he played some D's (third space above the staff) as a sideman with U2, and I can't think of anything higher than that in any of his work.
Extremely-high-note trumpet players are mostly popular with trumpet players. Serious jazz trumpet and big band fans also.
But in the general public, a significant number find Ferguson-Chase-Anderson-style high notes to be unpleasant. Yes, on more than one occasion as FOH engineer, audience members have asked me to turn down that horrible squealing trumpet, when, as a trumpet player, I was enjoying it. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:07 am Post subject:
delano wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:
Thus far: 17 seasons. Not one basso profundo has made it to the top 20, and never mind the top 20, I've never even seen one on the show. - Case closed.
Is there a trumpet player who plays or played the bass trumpet that has reached the popularity/fame/notoriety of Maynard Ferguson? -Case closed.
You are very eager to close cases.
Your example of the bass trumpet ... ok, let's keep this nice.
Maybe more to the point, are there any trumpetplayers that have reached the popularity/fame/notoriety of Maynard Ferguson without screaming above high G?
Sure, what to think of Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis?
How did they get there? Maybe in the first place by being the best theme players around + sound + style + creativity + form. Ever heard of, or even listened to Bix? He is a legend with the highest note recorded being a B under high C I believe.
I have nothing against MF, must have been a great guy, but LA, MD and even Bix are of a complete other stature, sorry for you.
And I know that the great Louis had to play for commercial reasons hundreds of high C's.
And the reaction of the public on high screaming or other virtuosity is ok but has nothing to do with musical content. I have seen rock guitarists getting thundering applause for some virtuoso tricks a modest classical guitar student plays everyday as practice.
Case closed.
You just supported my points. You say that Armstrong had to play a lot of high Cs for commercial reasons. For commercial reasons. THAT'S MY POINT. My point is that crowds love high notes. And trumpet players are human beings, too. They love them as well. And they want to play them. If they can't, they wish they could and then they'll deny the fact that they wish they could. If they become so good at all other aspects of their playing, it takes some of the sting out of not being able to play, but they still wish they could.
Who wouldn't want just one more weapon in their arsenals?
Even Wynton Marsalis on his "Trumpet Kings" video said that Louis was so great that he could play X-amount of high Cs in a row. Now with Wynton being the jazz purist that he is, why would he even mention the high Cs as a measure of jazz greatness? If high notes were not a big deal, why even mention that? It's because that's one of the things that made audiences notice Louis. So your mention of Louis Armstrong only serves to prove that even in those times, high notes are what made people stand up and take notice. And by the way, you say that Louis played high Cs for commercial reasons? Can you point me to the interview of Louis where he said this? Did Louis tell you this himself? If not, then how do you know that he did it only for commercial reasons? How about the possibility that Louis played those notes simply because he was expressing a high point of emotion in his playing? How do you know that he didn't do it because he could and he enjoyed it? Was Louis ashamed of "selling out" and playing high Cs? Did he ever say that? I'd like to see some proof of that.
Go to a big band concert, any time each member of the trumpet section gets to go down the line and take a solo, the "jazzer" of the section gets his turn, he plays a nice well-crafted solo with great licks, he'll get this mild to moderate finger-clapping courteous applause, when the lead player gets his turn, he might not play as fancy licks as the jazzer, but as his solo builds he'll belt out some nice high playing with lots of emotion and is met with loud, thunderous applause and lots of hootin' and hollerin' from the crowd. Happens every time. Never fails. Even when the crowd is an educated jazz crowd. The crowds ALWAYS respond louder for the high notes. There might be a very few members of the audience like yourself who sit there cringing and gritting your teeth like Newman on Seinfeld when he catches Jerry and his girlfriend in the movie theater making out during Schindler's List because you can't stand the fact that high notes trump everything else and they're getting the louder applause, but that's just the way it is. I didn't make it that way, I never said I wanted it to be that way, that's just the way it is. So just be honest with yourself and admit it.
I don't mind if someone doesn't like the way it is. I can't blame a person who is a great jazz player for getting mad that high notes get a better response from the crowd. I understand that feeling. Yeah, it takes a lot of practice to be a good jazz player. I get it. But crowds don't care. They applaud louder for high notes.
You can call these audiences whatever you want, uneducated, ignorant, boorish, uncultured for not understanding jazz. But music is for everyone to enjoy and people enjoy hearing something that touches them and what moves them. They don't want to have to go to school to learn what music is and what jazz is in order to be qualified to listen to that music. They're going to listen and they're going to cheer for what they like. And they cheer more for high notes than anything else. You don't have to like that fact. Just don't deny it.
When I was in college, I roomed with a couple of classical snobs who studied with classical teachers all the way into college. Their ranges were the typical high D, maybe once in a while they could get out the Eb for the Haydn on a good day. They had the same attitude, playing high isn't important, playing high is obnoxious, people who play high are obnoxious, blah blah blah. They knew all about Maynard Ferguson, and all they did was bad mouth him and talk about how unmusical he was. Then one day, the U.S. Army Jazz Ambassadors came to our school and they got a load of Bruce Silva playing lead trumpet. They were mesmerized. Then, not long after that, Maynard was playing nearby and I twisted their arms to go and see him with me. These guys were completely blown away. Until they had really heard high trumpet playing in a live scenario, they really had no idea of the kind of impact it has on not just the audience but themselves, too. Next thing you know, they're buying Schilke 13a4a mouthpieces, buying high register exercise books and they're trying like the dickens to develop their upper registers. They were not able to, so they went back to pooh-poohing of high register playing. They went back into denial.
If you're going to sit there and say that general audiences cheer louder for a good solo that never reaches above high C than for some good high playing, you're simply in denial. That's all.
Case Closed. And it's not even close, it's a slam dunk. Boom!
Last edited by gabriel127 on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:32 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:30 am Post subject:
I'm not going to get involved in the personality conflicts in these posts but, as a musician who enjoys musical, artistic content over the technical, show-influenced stuff, I avoid simultaneous-multiple trumpet group solos like the plague. They, all too frequently, quickly devolve into scream fests; who's the King of the Hill . . . which, to me, the audiences love. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 am Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
I'm not going to get involved in the personality conflicts in these posts but, as a musician who enjoys musical, artistic content over the technical, show-influenced stuff, I avoid simultaneous-multiple trumpet solos like the plague. They, all too frequently, quickly devolve into scream fests; who's the King of the Hill . . . which, to me, the audiences love.
And WHY do they become scream fests? Because everyone knows that the high notes get the loudest applause and this is the FACT that lures the players into making it into a scream fest.
Just more testimony supporting my point.
As far as personality conflicts are concerned.....
It's nothing personal. I'm not trying to put anybody down. It's just a debate. I'm debating that the truth is the truth. Some people don't like the truth. Just because they don't like the truth, it's not my fault and they should not take it out on the messenger and thus far, people have been mostly civil about it, which is the way it should be.
This debate is nothing new, it's been going on for ages. It's just the older I get, the more this truth becomes evident. The arguments on the other side of the debate are always the same, and they just don't hold water.
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