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"High notes aren't all that important anyway".


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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:01 am    Post subject: "High notes aren't all that important anyway". Reply with quote

Let's define these as notes above high G, sometimes called double G, the note a fifth above high C.
Opinions, experiences, suggestions?
I'll start: I see it as my goal to have a workable and nice sounding high G, notes above that I leave to specialists. IMO this is the limit of the natural range of the trumpet.
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3-Valve
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is meant by the "natural range?" What defines that? Natural to what/whom? Natural to the player? Natural to the instrument? Natural to your ears?

What really dictates what kind of range a player should strive for are the requirements of the kind of work a player does or wishes to do.

Right now, the cat is out of the bag, the bar has been raised, meaning that composers and arrangers in the commercial field know that there are guys that can play up to double C or double D. So if they feel that those notes are required to produce the excitement, energy, and fire that they are trying to convey with their music, then they will write the parts that high in and leave it up to the studios and contractors to make sure that they get someone who can play it.

So as a trumpet player, you have to know that if parts are written that high and you can't play it, they'll find someone who can. And there always is someone who can play it.

From a more practical standpoint, writing that high still isn't that abundantly common, so there's still enough work out there for someone whose range tops out at a high G as long as they're accurate, consistent, and can swing. There's a big difference between just being able to hit a note and actually being able to play that note with various dynamics and articulations, at the end of long phrases and at the end of long gigs. So a person with a good solid, workable, dependable G can still get plenty of work.

But also from a realistic standpoint, even if someone gets enough work with their current range, there isn't a trumpet player in existence who doesn't wish he or she could play higher, unless perhaps they already have a double D. I have heard countless people say that playing high isn't everything and that they are satisfied with their current range, yet secretly, they are still always envious of the guys who can play higher and they are always interested in finding ways to expand their ranges that they haven't tried before.

Let's face it, you can play a great jazz solo in the low and mid register and get moderate applause, but pound out some big, boisterous, powerful high notes and you'll get an even bigger response from the crowd. You just can't deny that. You don't have to like it, but you can't deny it. High notes elevate the spirit and evoke emotion. It's not a choice, it's primal/instinctual. Maynard Ferguson didn't become as famous and admired as he did by playing like Bobby Hackett.

The whole "playing high isn't everything" argument is just something that helps people who can't play high to cope with it. It helps them to feel better about it. They've resigned themselves to the proposition that they'll never be able to play high, so they just try to do the best with what they've got and focus on other areas of their playing.

Another important point to consider is this: If you can play high, that means that you've achieved a certain level of efficiency in your embouchure, which goes hand-in-hand with endurance. And that same efficiency, usually affords more flexibility. So what are you going to do, go around saying, "yeah, playing high is not that important, and while we're at it, naah, endurance isn't that important either. Oh, and flexibility isn't that important, no one makes you slur large intervals that often." Can you go around saying that with a straight face? The argument that the ability to play high isn't that important gets weaker the further you get into it.
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bhornFree
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-Valve wrote:
The whole "playing high isn't everything" argument is just something that helps people who can't play high to cope with it. It helps them to feel better about it. They've resigned themselves to the proposition that they'll never be able to play high, so they just try to do the best with what they've got and focus on other areas of their playing.


Not necessarily. I think you have to consider the audience. Plenty of teachers try to hammer this home with young/new students. The cult-like obsession with high range spills over and will cause them to develop with blinders on, neglecting a lot of fundamentals. Who cares if you can get a quadruple Q# if everything is out of tune and played with the finesse and tone of a warthog.

Now, to the extent people are trying to compete for paid gigs without range...OK that's a problem and I can't believe they would be excusing themselves with that argument. But, it depends on the gig, no? If you are focused on classical, a G is generally viewed as sufficient.
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joey
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a compelling argument to be made for F#/G to be the top of the "natural range" (for lack of a better term) of the trumpet. At this point, all of the overtone series overlap, and the valves are, essentially, useless. You can play any note any fingering. In this respect, the horn isn't working as intended (that the valves help!).

This is similar (but not the same as) pedal tones. Pedal tones are not on the overtone series of the trumpet- but we can play them. They're similar because even though the valves don't help you as much as they do in the (for lack of a better term) natural range of the trumpet, you can play those notes.

There are lots of ideas on how to build range. I look at the entire range of the trumpet as one thing. Avoiding thinking of low, middle, and high registers. Think like a piano. All of the notes are right in front of you. I've written about this, with some demonstrations at joeytartell.com Feel free to check it out and let me know what you think.

The one point above that I found problematic is this:

"Another important point to consider is this: If you can play high, that means that you've achieved a certain level of efficiency in your embouchure, which goes hand-in-hand with endurance. And that same efficiency, usually affords more flexibility."

This is just simply not true. There are plenty of players that have figured out how to play high. Some of these players have done so at the expense of flexibility and playing the full range of the trumpet. Being able to play high does not mean playing efficiently, or even playing well. It's the other way around. Playing well can lead to playing the full range of the trumpet with flexibility.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, mr. 3-valve is a new member and obviously wanted to make a strong statement, but,

I wrote: IMO this is the limit of the natural range of the trumpet. so obviously I meant natural to the instrument, so I don't understand your first quite agressive questions. I can repeat things but I believe mr. joey formulated it quite good what one can think about the natural range of the trumpet.

Another point, the envy of players without a stratospheric range. Yes, everybody wants a triple C but life is short and there have to be made choices.
See it as in economics, the second law of Gossen, there are range, endurance, flexibility, sound, fluidity of playing and so on. Time can be limited so in my case I give priority to tone (sound), flexibility and fluidity. Contrary to what you think I really don't believe these thing will come as a bonus with range.

Your statements concerning the audience reacting more on big,boisterous, powerful high notes say nothing to me. If you want that kind of succes I can really advise you to throw your trumpet in the garbage bin, buy a Gibson Les Paul or , even better, a dj set-up and you will have a hysterical audience and maybe a private jet. Then you only have to play your usb-stick and a little bit of waving to the audience. BTW Bobby Hackett was a great player and when he once sold one of his cornets it was advertised as 'a horn with a not used so new high register".

For better understanding: I defined high notes as notes above high G, so I think a good high register is important. It's funny that mr. Lionel first stated that he changed embouchure out of frustration about his limit to high G but said in a later post in the thread mentioned here below that he was employed his life long with that limitation, calling that range now a decent upper register.

See: Where is your range ceiling, or cut-off point? on this forum.
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jazztrumpetbill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This will no doubt be an interesting thread. All trumpet players want to play high..even if they won't admit it. However, it is rare that you need anything over a double F. There are many big band and broadway show charts that require that range. If I could have a dependable range to that point, I would be very happy.
As far as a above F# or G, I don't really care if I hear those notes played by anyone. But that is why we all have opinions.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: "High notes aren't all that important anyway". Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Let's define these as notes above high G, sometimes called double G, the note a fifth above high C.
Opinions, experiences, suggestions?
I'll start: I see it as my goal to have a workable and nice sounding high G, notes above that I leave to specialists. IMO this is the limit of the natural range of the trumpet.


I agree that the G is the highest natural note on the trumpet. My goal in terms of range matches yours. There are reasons to have range extending above the G but, in my opinion, the reasons have mostly to do with "impression". Not that "impression" is a bad thing, but you can make a pretty strong impression just with a solid screaming mother G.
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joey
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too often, these discussions end up arguing about whether or not people should be playing higher or not. These are worthless discussions. If you want to play higher- go for it. If you don't - don't. But please, just because someone wants to do something you may not want do- stop arguing with them.

I've made part of my living playing above high G. I've seen it written in parts- I've gotten gigs specifically because that range is needed. This doesn't mean that I think I am in any way better than someone that has not chosen to develop that part of their playing. Like I said before, there are trumpet players that can play high notes that I don't think are particularly good trumpet players. There are also trumpet players that can't play high that aren't any good. It's not a 1-to-1. Whether you choose to pursue playing the extreme upper register of the trumpet won't make you a good, or bad, player. That's a separate issue.
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3-Valve
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joey wrote:
There is a compelling argument to be made for F#/G to be the top of the "natural range" (for lack of a better term) of the trumpet. At this point, all of the overtone series overlap, and the valves are, essentially, useless. You can play any note any fingering.


That logic might also support the end of the natural range of the trumpet being high C. You can play the D above high C with no valves, in fact the D plays more in tune open than with the first valve. With the first valve, it plays a little flat on most horns and many players play it open as a result, Doc Severinsen and Chuck Findley to mention a couple. You can also play the F open, albeit it a little sharp. But frankly, I don't understand the relevance of identifying the natural range of the trumpet. What's the point? You have to play what the music calls for.

joey wrote:
There are plenty of players that have figured out how to play high. Some of these players have done so at the expense of flexibility and playing the full range of the trumpet. Being able to play high does not mean playing efficiently, or even playing well. It's the other way around. Playing well can lead to playing the full range of the trumpet with flexibility.


I should have further qualified my previous statement by specifying that if they are playing high notes properly and with a good sound, the other attributes will fall into place. I agree that there are people who can play high notes with lousy, "pinched" or nasal kinds of sounds who don't have the other playing attributes that I mentioned. These guys are often squeezing or pressing the notes out. There is tension in their chops. Their physiologies are such that they can pinch those notes out without the sound cutting off, but playing that way does not afford their embouchures the suppleness to transition between the tension and relaxation for what I would consider an efficient setup. To play the trumpet with a bad sound is an unacceptable thing. If you can't get a good sound, you're not making music. There are a lot of guys playing lead who don't have good sounds but they get calls simply because there aren't enough people around who can play high enough.
So this only underscores the reason for striving to be able to play in the upper register. Speaking from personal experience, back when I had embouchure problems I had a good sound, but had lousy range, I couldn't tongue, I had no flexibility. When my embouchure problems were corrected, my range improved and so did all of the other aspects including double and triple tonguing. I have seen the same happen to other players. I'll agree that a good sound should always be the guide and the prerequisite for everything but a good sound doesn't ensure a good high register. So I wouldn't say it's the other way around. This feels like a "chicken or the egg" type debate.

The main point of my original post is that there is plenty of demand for players with a great upper register, thus I think everyone should strive for it. A secondary point is that general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else, it's a primal instinctual thing. And thirdly all trumpet players want to be able to play high whether they admit it or not. So why not strive to play high?

delano wrote:
I don't understand your first quite agressive questions.


I wasn't trying to be aggressive with my questions. I was being genuine. I was simply giving examples to choose from as I was not sure which one you meant. I wasn't trying to brow-beat.

As for the rest of it all, I knew that my post would draw the ire of all of the people who continually say that playing high isn't everything.

I think we all understand that there are plenty of great things that a person can do on the trumpet other than playing high. And if a person plays high, but does so out-of-tune, with a lousy sound, or obnoxiously, that's not good. But it's not good in the low and middle registers, either.

There's a YouTube video of Dave Monette somewhere on which he says something to the effect that trumpet players who say that they don't want to be able to play higher are liars. I've heard plenty of other mouthpiece manufacturers say things to the exact same effect. After Louis Dowdeswell made a YouTube video telling everyone that he loved his new GR 64SZ mouthpiece, the GR dealers couldn't keep them in stock.

And as I'm typing this, I'm listening to an Arturo Sandoval YouTube video and coincidentally, he's just started talking about how every time trumpet students have an opportunity to talk to him whether at clinics, master classes, or after concerts, the question he ALWAYS gets over and over is "what can I do in order to play higher--how can I play higher?" He's commenting that he would rather they ask him how to play prettier, but no one ever asks him that.

I understand that there are guys who will defend their "I don't care about playing high" statements until their dying days. ---Which is why I can't resist every once in a while saying, "Aw, c'mon, just admit it, will ya?"
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joey
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be clear, what I am saying is once you get to high F# and G, from there on you can play any note with any fingering. You can not do that on high F and below. I was merely pointing out where all of the overtone series overlap. You can not play high C with any fingering.

Let me make myself clear, I really enjoy playing the full range of the trumpet. It's something I work on every day. That means I am constantly pushing that barrier.

I would argue that what you wrote about playing high properly is backwards. If someone is playing high properly, it's not that everything else falls into place. It's precisely because they've put things into place that they can play high properly.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-Valve:

"general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else"

Actually, many audience members are annoyed by the extreme register of the trumpet. Nobody loves the sound of trumpet high notes more than trumpet players.

"all trumpet players want to be able to play high whether they admit it or not"

This simply is not true. In fact, it's pretty easy to find players who are just not interested in exploring the highest register of the trumpet. I, for one, am content with being able to play up to high E or so. The really high stuff just doesn't sound appealing to me.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:
3-Valve:

"general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else"

Actually, many audience members are annoyed by the extreme register of the trumpet. Nobody loves the sound of trumpet high notes more than trumpet players.

"all trumpet players want to be able to play high whether they admit it or not"

This simply is not true. In fact, it's pretty easy to find players who are just not interested in exploring the highest register of the trumpet. I, for one, am content with being able to play up to high E or so. The really high stuff just doesn't sound appealing to me.


THIS

The problem is that: "whether they admit it or not" defines every 'or not' as a lie.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my comebacker sense of naive wonder, I have not set any upper range objective. I own D above high C. I rent Eb. I visit E sometimes. Maybe I'll get to F or F# before I die.

The vast majority of my hobbyist needs are met at high C to D. But I include pursuing notes above them in daily practice just as I play the 19/30 long tones every day, do lip slurs, scales, and practice my ear playing.

I am having fun, which as a hobbyist is my total goal.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to expand my range, but not so I can play into the screech register and peel paint. I want to solidify my upper register so I can play picc better. I do more orchestra playing than any other, so anything above a High G is unnecessary unless I'm performing the Michael Haydn Concerto, which I won't be anytime soon, if ever.

I personally dislike sitting next to or even hearing trumpet players who pull this type of garbage playing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXMskKTw3Bc

A humorous video, but it describes the tasteless playing some trumpeters sometimes do in an effort to show off. What's worse is these cats think it sounds good.

The upper register used tastefully can be very exciting to hear.

Very few can do it well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-Valve wrote:
The whole "playing high isn't everything" argument is just something that helps people who can't play high to cope with it. It helps them to feel better about it. They've resigned themselves to the proposition that they'll never be able to play high, so they just try to do the best with what they've got and focus on other areas of their playing.

I think it's a factual statement. There's a lot more to playing than just banging out high notes.

There's a long list of well-known players who had decent range but weren't high-note beasts.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is actually a zombie (or maybe a vampire) posing as a new thread. I’m literally reading the exact same stuff that has been posted probably at least once a month (maybe once a week?) for the past decade or two. No topic is more often rehashed than the upper register, but in all fairness it’s probably always been this way since Herodoros...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-Valve wrote:
The whole "playing high isn't everything" argument is just something that helps people who can't play high to cope with it. It helps them to feel better about it. They've resigned themselves to the proposition that they'll never be able to play high, so they just try to do the best with what they've got and focus on other areas of their playing.



That's a fairly high-note meathead thing to say. I have range to do pretty much whatever I would need to do, minus the specialty stuff Joey does, and the reason I don't get called for, or try to make my living getting called to do it is because there are other well established people in town who already do it such as Joey and at least two others that I can think of.

It's not a case of, "I can't play high, so I just use the argument to cope with it to feel better"; If I were to begin getting those calls, I would prepare myself to get to that point. Playing high (let's define this as the F above high C) is a specialty area that isn't needed as much as other techniques, or having a good sound, or playing musically. I will go as far as to say that most full-time, working professional players could do the same without much issue. They probably just don't want to! This however should not be confused not being able to.

Joey: awesome responses and information. I love the blogs and admire your work. I hope we get to cross paths soon!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So according to the OP's logic a Double A is an unnatural note? Feels just as natural to me as the G below it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like high notes. I’ve spent hours upon hours developing that skill. But I don’t think it’s very important to anyone but me.

They are 5 of the 42 notes you might need to play. They are 11.9% of ones aspirational range.

Where could you play them if you can play them? Studios? Musicals? Popular music?

Out of 100,000 or more notes in a movie score how many notes above G does WB typically play? 10? 100? Even if he’s playing 100 of them it’s 0.1% of the total music. In that one score. Very few movie scores have any.

Musicals have more scores with high notes but the ratio of high notes to total music is still minuscule. And how many audience members listen for the high notes? They’re paying money to hear the people on stage.

Of all the music played in the world every day little of it has a trumpet much less high notes. Those 7 billion music lovers aren’t exactly clamoring to hear a fat high A.

Of the few thousand members of TH how many weigh in on this subject? A dozen or so. Less than 1%. It’s not that important even to us trumpet nerds.

It’s a special and rarely used skill found in a minuscule subset of music. If it’s a skill you are driven to develop then go for it. Have fun. But there’s more than enough music that doesn’t require them.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joey wrote:
Too often, these discussions end up arguing about whether or not people should be playing higher or not. These are worthless discussions. If you want to play higher- go for it. If you don't - don't. But please, just because someone wants to do something you may not want do- stop arguing with them.

I've made part of my living playing above high G. I've seen it written in parts- I've gotten gigs specifically because that range is needed. This doesn't mean that I think I am in any way better than someone that has not chosen to develop that part of their playing. Like I said before, there are trumpet players that can play high notes that I don't think are particularly good trumpet players. There are also trumpet players that can't play high that aren't any good. It's not a 1-to-1. Whether you choose to pursue playing the extreme upper register of the trumpet won't make you a good, or bad, player. That's a separate issue.

Great post.
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