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"High notes aren't all that important anyway".


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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of internet winning happening here folks, let's keep it up, I've got lots of popcorn left!
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
Lots of internet winning happening here folks, let's keep it up, I've got lots of popcorn left!


I love it when threads get weird.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
(Just rubbing my hands together waiting for the next “I win the internet” post...)


Obviously you don't have the courage to do that on your own.
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area51recording
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the only thing that matters is the scream fest then? Wow, I'm 62 and I've just figured out I've wasted my life. Tough pill to swallow.....
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what to do with the desperate cry of mr. gabriel127 that he is the
( a?) winner. OK, if he insists...
This discussion learned me that for some people the applause of the public is the most importants thing in music. That may be right for them but there are other opinions possible.
And I respect completely that people can make their living out of high register playing, as I said before, it's IMO a specialist thing.
I started this thread with limiting the discussion to notes above high G (because I still believe the normal, maybe natural, range of a trumpetplayer is between low F# and high G) so I really don't understand what mr. Gabriel wants with the high C's of Armstrong. In fact it was a little set up from my side that he could not resist.
I am not sure but I think a leadplayer in the time of Paul Whiteman would not have to play above let's say a high D. That changed when the orchestras got bigger, from two to three to four to five trumpets. If you have to write for orchestras with five trumpets, five bones, 6 or 7 sax players you have to broaden the sound, it must go deeper by the bass trombone and the bass tuba, and higher in the trumpets (Gil Evans experimented with flutes and synthesizers for that). That, and true, the special effects, are the reasons for the development of high blowing. Personally I don't see any reason for five trumpets anymore. The special effect remains and that's the playing ground for the specialists.
And it's a pity that mr. gabriel and is 127 friends neglect their study of the history of jazz, maybe the most interesting and valuable form of pure American art.
So a short answer on his question: Armstrong has to play all that high C's because his manager had billed him as "World's Greatest Trumpeter".
It's noteworthy that nobody is interested other than for historical reasons in the music Satchmo then made.
Interview with Louis? Louis Armstrong about Bix (and mr. gabriel: don't ever think that Bix was in or even able for high blowing!):
"Bix, he had so much beautiful technique and beautiful things like that he did. Well, I come up from the old rough and tumble days. Probably I had to blow a little louder and a little stronger... He didn't have to do that. He just played nice,fine, technical and beautiful notes at all times.."

edit: you can find this (and a lot more about this) in: Jean Pierre Lion: Bix, The Definitive Biography of a Jazz Legend, page 289.


Last edited by delano on Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:36 am; edited 3 times in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
Lots of internet winning happening here folks, let's keep it up, I've got lots of popcorn left!


I love it when threads get weird.


Your turn will come up when somebody asks for a mouthpiece advice so don't worry.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
(Just rubbing my hands together waiting for the next “I win the internet” post...)


Obviously you don't have the courage to do that on your own.


I guess that’s true; pretty sure I burnt out all of my TH gumption back during the Wild Thing wars, the battle over whether 1960s Maynard or 1970s Maynard was better, and the fierce skirmish over whether Wynton or Andre played a better high concert A in their Michael Haydn concerto recordings...
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
(Just rubbing my hands together waiting for the next “I win the internet” post...)


Obviously you don't have the courage to do that on your own.


I guess that’s true; pretty sure I burnt out all of my TH gumption back during the Wild Thing wars, the battle over whether 1960s Maynard or 1970s Maynard was better, and the fierce skirmish over whether Wynton or Andre played a better high concert A in their Michael Haydn concerto recordings...


What exactly are you disappointed about?
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intrepidpooch
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a solid command of the entire range of the trumpet is obviously important, but the borderline obsessive emphasis on high notes some trumpeters have is a bit ridiculous. There's a reason why Miles, Pops, Chet, etc were way more influential and popular than Maynard (who I think was great). The average listener wants to hear beautiful melodies played with a personal sound and soul, not somebody screaming the entire song. Not one girl I've ever dated enjoyed listening to the extreme upper register of the horn but everyone of them loved Kind Of Blue or Coltrane Ballads. Try to set the mood for an romantic evening with a Maynard or Bill Chase album, good luck with that!!!!
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best selling trumpet player of all time is probably Herb Alpert with 70+ million records sold.

As great of a player as Maynard was, 200 years from now people will still be studying Miles and his artistic achievements while Maynard will be a footnote mostly for his work with Stan Kenton (Kenton being the lasting artistic achievement). Maynard played some really great music as well as some really terrible music, but his lasting musical impact is minimal other than to trumpet geeks.

Mendez is sometimes called the greatest trumpet player to ever live but had a relatively limited upper register.

Chris Botti made Reggie Wayne cry on Monday night football with the most gentle, beautiful, non-screamer National Anthem I've ever heard.

Artistry matters far more than high notes. Play the music that moves you; if you don't have the range to play it, figure it out. If the music that moves you doesn't require notes you don't have, range work might be a waste of your time. Or maybe you need to listen to more music and find new things that move you. Everything is a tradeoff though. Musical flexibility matters, but some degree of specialization is needed for professional success.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

area51recording wrote:
So the only thing that matters is the scream fest then? Wow, I'm 62 and I've just figured out I've wasted my life. Tough pill to swallow.....


That's painful to hear. You are not alone. Lots of people make choices in life ( I am one of them) that are regretted later. (I am 71 now).
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
And they want to play them. If they can't, they wish they could and then they'll deny the fact that they wish they could. If they become so good at all other aspects of their playing, it takes some of the sting out of not being able to play, but they still wish they could.
Who wouldn't want just one more weapon in their arsenals?


The problem with such a broad, definitive conclusion like you are making, is that they are way too easy to discredit. I am one of those trumpet players who does not like the sound of the extreme upper register, and who is completely satisfied with my range up to E.

For some reason, you are so sure that I am lying. I am confused (and in awe) that you would propose to know how I feel better than I do. It's silly. I can say with absolute certainty that your assertion is wrong. I am the counterexample. Unfortunately, no matter what I say you think I'm lying, so you will continue to go through life believing all trumpet players can either play high or want to be able to play high.

It's fine that you are into high notes. It's fine that you seem to only be concerned with what gets the loudest applause. People are into music for all kinds of reasons. You are not alone. Many musicians play only for the applause. For me, as soon as the trumpet players trading solos start screaming, I lose all interest. It doesn't sound good to me. The music has stopped at that point. But that's just me.

By the way, using American Idol as a model for what is important in music seems like an odd choice. I don't see a whole lot of musicality there, and certainly do not believe the singers on that show represent anywhere near the best musical talent the human race has to offer.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
(Just rubbing my hands together waiting for the next “I win the internet” post...)


Obviously you don't have the courage to do that on your own.


I guess that’s true; pretty sure I burnt out all of my TH gumption back during the Wild Thing wars, the battle over whether 1960s Maynard or 1970s Maynard was better, and the fierce skirmish over whether Wynton or Andre played a better high concert A in their Michael Haydn concerto recordings...


What exactly are you disappointed about?


Sorry, I guess my attempt at humor is being lost, I apologize for not at least getting a chuckle...
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
(Just rubbing my hands together waiting for the next “I win the internet” post...)


Obviously you don't have the courage to do that on your own.


I guess that’s true; pretty sure I burnt out all of my TH gumption back during the Wild Thing wars, the battle over whether 1960s Maynard or 1970s Maynard was better, and the fierce skirmish over whether Wynton or Andre played a better high concert A in their Michael Haydn concerto recordings...


What exactly are you disappointed about?


Sorry, I guess my attempt at humor is being lost, I apologize for not at least getting a chuckle...


I feel the same, it's difficult if you don't know who you are talking to: is it to bike or to ed?
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
I feel the same, it's difficult if you don't know who you are talking to: is it to bike or to Ed?


Oh thank goodness, I was worried I had caused potential offense. Now regarding your question, I never know who's talking either. Bike likes important trumpet stuff like dubbas, trippas, and circular breathing, while ed likes silly stuff like tone quality, intonation, and musical depth...
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
delano wrote:
I feel the same, it's difficult if you don't know who you are talking to: is it to bike or to Ed?


Oh thank goodness, I was worried I had caused potential offense. Now regarding your question, I never know who's talking either. Bike likes important trumpet stuff like dubbas, trippas, and circular breathing, while ed likes silly stuff like tone quality, intonation, and musical depth...


As long as you both got paid...
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
delano wrote:
I feel the same, it's difficult if you don't know who you are talking to: is it to bike or to Ed?


Oh thank goodness, I was worried I had caused potential offense. Now regarding your question, I never know who's talking either. Bike likes important trumpet stuff like dubbas, trippas, and circular breathing, while ed likes silly stuff like tone quality, intonation, and musical depth...


As long as you both got paid...


Oddly enough we both are compensated monetarily!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
...on more than one occasion as FOH engineer, audience members have asked me to turn down that horrible squealing trumpet, when, as a trumpet player, I was enjoying it.


So you shot them, right?
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:
And they want to play them. If they can't, they wish they could and then they'll deny the fact that they wish they could. If they become so good at all other aspects of their playing, it takes some of the sting out of not being able to play, but they still wish they could.
Who wouldn't want just one more weapon in their arsenals?


The problem with such a broad, definitive conclusion like you are making, is that they are way too easy to discredit. I am one of those trumpet players who does not like the sound of the extreme upper register, and who is completely satisfied with my range up to E.

For some reason, you are so sure that I am lying. I am confused (and in awe) that you would propose to know how I feel better than I do. It's silly. I can say with absolute certainty that your assertion is wrong. I am the counterexample. Unfortunately, no matter what I say you think I'm lying, so you will continue to go through life believing all trumpet players can either play high or want to be able to play high.

It's fine that you are into high notes. It's fine that you seem to only be concerned with what gets the loudest applause. People are into music for all kinds of reasons. You are not alone. Many musicians play only for the applause. For me, as soon as the trumpet players trading solos start screaming, I lose all interest. It doesn't sound good to me. The music has stopped at that point. But that's just me.

By the way, using American Idol as a model for what is important in music seems like an odd choice. I don't see a whole lot of musicality there, and certainly do not believe the singers on that show represent anywhere near the best musical talent the human race has to offer.


Yeah, you're right, you hit the nail right on the head. I play for the applause. I play for the audience. I get a lot of gratification from good responses from the audience. How gratifying can it be to produce any kind of art that no one likes? If someone is playing only to gratify himself and nobody else, that's called masturbation.

Dizzy Gillespie even said that the job of a musician is to make people say "yeah." "Cuz when people say 'yeah,' dat's emotion, you reachin' INSIDE dem."

And he's absolutely right, music has a unique ability to touch people's emotions in a way that nothing else can. And within the musical realm, the high notes do that more than anything else.

If any kind of artist only seeks to please himself and perhaps a very small segment of society (especially one that doesn't spend a lot of money on art), then it's going to be awfully tough to make a living.

I never proclaimed American Idol as a symbol for good music. But it can't be ignored that it represents a major part of pop culture. It's easy to see that pop music changes in style from one decade to the next, but regardless of the changes that have occurred one thing remains constant. High notes get the reactions, whether it's singing or playing an instrument. That's my point. I don't like everything that I see happening on on American Idol, but what can be observed there still proves my point.

And another thing about American Idol in it's favor, however, is that at least what you're seeing performed on there is MUSIC, whether it's your cup of tea or not. When I say music, I'm talking about something that fits the true definition of music, which means that it contains the 3 essential elements of music which are melody, harmony, and rhythm as opposed to just rhythm, hate and rebellion lyrics, and record-scratching sounds. And a lot of musicians including trumpet players whom we know and admire have gotten some nice paychecks from being on that show. The same goes for "Dancing with the Stars." I will always support any TV show that employs live musicians and puts them in the public eye. The way society is headed, it doesn't seem as though it will be a long time before young people won't even know what a musical instrument is.

loweredsixth wrote:
For some reason, you are so sure that I am lying. I am confused (and in awe) that you would propose to know how I feel better than I do. It's silly.


That is the most common archetypical response from people who are in denial. As a former educator and counselor for substance abusers, I can tell you that that is exactly what they say when you inform them that you see through their denial. So unfortunately, that response only serves to discredit your case, not mine. And I'm not calling anyone a liar. I've just been around long enough to hear it all. That's the problem with getting into a debate with someone with a lot of wisdom who's been around a while. They've heard it all before.

Another anecdotal example is this one. There's a guy from my local area he always said things similar to what you're saying. He is THE most respected jazz trumpeter in the area. He did not lack for work. He's the first call jazz guy. He used to bad-mouth high playing saying that it did nothing for him, etc.. Then, without telling anyone, he secretly started studying with a upper-range specialist and the guy actually helped him to increase his range by a fourth. So now, he's playing gigs as second trumpet rather than fourth and having the second trumpet solos handed to him. Every solo he takes, he now plays to the upper limits of his range and he's loving it. He even gets a lead gig once in a while and he absolutely loves that, too. And he gets more studio work as a result.

So I'm not speaking just from the angle of my own preference, I'm speaking from lots of life experience and observing the same things that happen over and over from time immemorial. People say what they're going to say, but the truth remains.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is getting tiresome, at least to me. Sheer volume of words does not win a debate nor further one's argument. Wisdom is not a product of age, nor of time.

I don't feel it is necessary to explain or justify why I play music. I do it because I must. Not from ambition, or to receive kudos, but because something spiritual happens to me from doing it. Do I enjoy applause? Yes! But deep inside I know there is a force at play which is greater than my own self satisfaction. I yield to that force if I wish to remain healthy. Not for any end - the playing is the end.

So anyway, gabriel127, please, do us all a favor and give it a rest. You are entitled to believe what you will, as are the rest of us. There is no rule at play which says one of us has to be right and the others wrong. There is no right and no wrong, only point of view.
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