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Bach....really??


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ricardinny
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ir you like Bach trumpets, buy Yamaha ytr-9335 nys!
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Speed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few years ago I bought a new Bach 190S37. I expected some break in time with the valves, but within a couple of weeks it was clear that something was wrong. It wasn't just a bit of black gunk, it was pieces of some material.

To make a really long story really short, it turned out that Bach, along with some other manufacturers, do not close up the tubing with they send it for plating. That means some of the silver plating gets on the inside of the tubing. Obviously, the inside of the tubes are not prepped for silverplate, so the silver plating was flaking off and getting in the valve cluster. By the time I took it back to the retailer, the valves looked like I'd been using sand instead of valve oil.

The retailer looked at the valves, and his words to me were, "This is not your problem; this is our problem." They got the Conn-Selmer rep involved and I had a new 190S37 in a week. The rep contacted me on several occasions and had me send some details directly to Tedd Waggoner. It made it apparent to me that Bach took the situation seriously.

Based on my experience, the protocol is to return the instrument to the retailer. They deal with Bach. That said, I thought it was a nice touch that the Conn-Selmer rep called me on multiple occasions and emailed me as well.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
A few years ago I bought a new Bach 190S37. I expected some break in time with the valves, but within a couple of weeks it was clear that something was wrong. It wasn't just a bit of black gunk, it was pieces of some material.

To make a really long story really short, it turned out that Bach, along with some other manufacturers, do not close up the tubing with they send it for plating. That means some of the silver plating gets on the inside of the tubing. Obviously, the inside of the tubes are not prepped for silverplate, so the silver plating was flaking off and getting in the valve cluster. By the time I took it back to the retailer, the valves looked like I'd been using sand instead of valve oil.

The retailer looked at the valves, and his words to me were, "This is not your problem; this is our problem." They got the Conn-Selmer rep involved
and I had a new 190S37 in a week. The rep contacted me on several occasions and had me send some details directly to Tedd Waggoner. It made it apparent to me that Bach took the situation seriously.

Based on my experience, the protocol is to return the instrument to the retailer. They deal with Bach. That said, I thought it was a nice touch that the Conn-Selmer rep called me on multiple occasions and emailed me as well.

Take care,
Marc Speed


If there were a "Like" feature I'd click this. Returning to your retailer is the way to go in these situations. Clearly this approach resulted in a satisfactory outcome. Congratulations Marc!
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
Speed wrote:
A few years ago I bought a new Bach 190S37. I expected some break in time with the valves, but within a couple of weeks it was clear that something was wrong. It wasn't just a bit of black gunk, it was pieces of some material.

To make a really long story really short, it turned out that Bach, along with some other manufacturers, do not close up the tubing with they send it for plating. That means some of the silver plating gets on the inside of the tubing. Obviously, the inside of the tubes are not prepped for silverplate, so the silver plating was flaking off and getting in the valve cluster. By the time I took it back to the retailer, the valves looked like I'd been using sand instead of valve oil.

The retailer looked at the valves, and his words to me were, "This is not your problem; this is our problem." They got the Conn-Selmer rep involved
and I had a new 190S37 in a week. The rep contacted me on several occasions and had me send some details directly to Tedd Waggoner. It made it apparent to me that Bach took the situation seriously.

Based on my experience, the protocol is to return the instrument to the retailer. They deal with Bach. That said, I thought it was a nice touch that the Conn-Selmer rep called me on multiple occasions and emailed me as well.

Take care,
Marc Speed


If there were a "Like" feature I'd click this. Returning to your retailer is the way to go in these situations. Clearly this approach resulted in a satisfactory outcome. Congratulations Marc!


I totally agree. The problem I have, and what prompted me to start this thread, is helping students’ parents understand that they really do need to take the horns back to the dealer to correct these problems. I think sometimes parents (who are well intentioned) either don’t get around to taking the horns back, or don’t really think it’s necessary, or both. One student’s brand new two week old Strad now has a nice dent in the dump slide from it popping out and hitting the floor, and his tuning slide is FAR too tight, to the point where I was actually concerned about popping a brace when trying to remove it. Absolutely easily fixable, but it would be better if the slides had not been poorly fitted to begin with. Again, I would not have started this thread if this was an isolated incident, it’s not, I’ve been seeing this sort of thing for quite some time.

It sounds as if Bach is paying attention to this and taking it seriously, which is great, hopefully they can make corrections.

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
The problem I have, and what prompted me to start this thread, is helping students’ parents understand that they really do need to take the horns back to the dealer to correct these problems. I think sometimes parents (who are well intentioned) either don’t get around to taking the horns back, or don’t really think it’s necessary, or both.

Brad,

I understand and share your concern. But at the end of the day is this really your problem?

If the parents and the student are satisfied then you maybe should just make sure they are aware and let it go.

One thing you could do is keep something like spacefiller on hand to put on the third valve dump slides to help prevent issues for students who don't get the horn fixed. I understand this is not the right fix, but it would only take a moment to apply and it would prevent dents.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
The problem I have, and what prompted me to start this thread, is helping students’ parents understand that they really do need to take the horns back to the dealer to correct these problems. I think sometimes parents (who are well intentioned) either don’t get around to taking the horns back, or don’t really think it’s necessary, or both.

Brad,

I understand and share your concern. But at the end of the day is this really your problem?

If the parents and the student are satisfied then you maybe should just make sure they are aware and let it go.

One thing you could do is keep something like spacefiller on hand to put on the third valve dump slides to help prevent issues for students who don't get the horn fixed. I understand this is not the right fix, but it would only take a moment to apply and it would prevent dents.


Good point (s), it’s really not my problem. I just remember that when I had my first pro horn (1970 King Silver Flair), I wanted everything with it to be “perfect.” But you are correct, someone else’s horn is not really my problem, and not everyone is as OCD about this sort of thing as I am.😎

Hopefully (and I believe the best resolution to this, will be) Bach becomes a bit more quality assurance aware and corrects these mostly relatively minor problems.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TH: One to three posts about a given subject, followed by two pages of people invalidating each other‘s posts.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
TH: One to three posts about a given subject, followed by two pages of people invalidating each other‘s posts.


Are you posting about a subject, or invalidating?
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
TH: One to three posts about a given subject, followed by two pages of people invalidating each other‘s posts.


Not true.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own a used Bach Stradivarius NY 7 that I bought on eBay. LOVE IT ! I have played several other NY7's and loved all of them. Having said that; I tried out the new Bach Commercial in a ML and Large Bore version and did not like either of those. I do love the Schilke's and the Yamaha's too.
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dr_jay
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: More anecdotes... Reply with quote

This might not be the right place to post this, but it’s slightly relevant and perhaps better than starting a new thread titled “Hey! I got a new horn!”.

So today I bought my first new horn (not counting a cheapo pocket trumpet) since 1974! Background: I started playing again in January after 38 years off, and have been mostly playing my 1974 Olds Ambassador. So basically, I’ve played the one horn for 7 years, followed by a 38 year break, and then for another 5 months in 2019. Not exactly broadly experienced, but you have to start somewhere.

I went down to a major (local, one-store) retailer near DC, intending to test out a couple of Schilkes. I asked for a B1 and a B5, having read lots of good things about the company’s horns, and that one was likely to strongly prefer one over the other. In fact, I did: although I thought I’d probably like the more restrictive B5, I had a moderately strong preference for the B1, just judging on sound quality, especially at higher volumes. I tend to suspect most people think they can detect much smaller differences than they actually can detect, so I admit to that bias. I was a little surprised to be able to tell the difference, frankly.

But this is supposed to be about quality, so here are my comments on that subject. Forgetting sound preferences, the B5 had a sticky first valve. I liked the valve action on the B1. I’m sure they’re the same valve block, so this was a quality control problem. (Yes, I oiled both sets of valves.)

On the B1, the 1st and 3rd slides were both gooped up (presumably with heavy slide grease) to the point that while they moved reasonably, they certainly weren’t moving quickly enough.

I was getting ready to leave, since I hadn’t planned to buy for month or so. But I had wanted to compare the winner between the 2 Schilkes (the B1) to a Bach Strad, which, as I’ve said, I’ve never held, much less played. So I ended up asking for a 180S37, and compared it to the B1. I went back and forth for about 20 or 30 minutes. To be honest, I could not tell the difference in sound quality: I liked both of them quite a lot. Both were much more open blowing in the mid-to-upper register (upper for me is probably middle for you), and I loved the sound compared to the Olds. (I do like the Olds, BTW.) Three things stood out to me: I really liked the valve action on the Strad. Where I had previously been happy with the valves on the B1, they now seemed sort of light/flimsy and even a little sticky compared to the smooth valves on the Strad. Although I have read that many pro trumpets are very light weight and that this can be a positive, I have to say that I liked the heavy weight and solid build quality of the Strad. Finally (3rd thing), the 1st and 3rd slides on the Strad both moved quickly and easily, as they should. And I like the limiting rod on the 3rd slide, frankly. Now, probably the 1st/3rd slides on the B1 would have cleaned up and moved just fine, but given the subject of this post, I think the horn as presented in the store is relevant.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I went in there with a bias towards Schilke (based 100% on reading on the internet), and walked out with a Bach Strad which had great valve action and perfect (as far as I could tell) 1st/3rd slide action. The tuning slide was moderately tight, but fine, BTW. The 3rd valve dump slide was just fine (not loose).

Just to be be clear, and fair to Schilke: I did like the sound of the Schilke B1, and especially the reverse tuning slide with plated exposed surface (the Strad is brass where exposed), and I fully believe it is a fine, top quality pro horn. I may well own a Schilke some day. But if we’re talking quality control as evidenced by the 3 horns I played today (yep: anecdotal evidence for sure), the Bach fared very well, and the Schilkes, not so much: one was good (but not as good as the Strad), and one was buggy (the 1st valve).

Oh: and also, the Strad came with a very nice case. So there’s that.

Thanks for reading…

Jay
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to Jay’s post, it’s evident the retailer presented him with out of the box instruments. When first unwrapped I’ve found every Schilke trumpet to have their lanolin based grease on the action slides and hyper tight piston valves. As I previously mentioned, EVERY instrument we sell gets prepped by a highly skilled technician before it is presented to our customers. Unlike large volume retailers, that’s the little bit extra you’re going to find here.

My two cents.
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77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
In response to Jay’s post, it’s evident the retailer presented him with out of the box instruments. When first unwrapped I’ve found every Schilke trumpet to have their lanolin based grease on the action slides and hyper tight piston valves. As I previously mentioned, EVERY instrument we sell gets prepped by a highly skilled technician before it is presented to our customers. Unlike large volume retailers, that’s the little bit extra you’re going to find here.

My two cents.


Which, unfortunately, is probably the exception; many minor problems, Bach, Schilke, Whatever could be corrected if all dealers did what Osmun does. I would definitely pay a bit more if necessary to buy from a retailer like these guys.

Brad
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
I just bought a new 37 in April and the third dump slide does the same thing. I have to keep an elastic band on it. Ridiculous.

It occurred to me this evening, maybe as a result of this thread, that should be covered under the five year manufacturer warranty. I have contacted my vendor to see what the next steps should be for pursuing this.


Just wanted to follow up on this. I brought my Bach to my local repair tech, who also happens to be a trumpet player and a member of TH. Anyway, he found that yes the 3rd dump slide was loose, particularly the bottom half. He said when he put only the bottom half of the slide in, he could wiggle it slightly because it was so loose.

He was able to expand the pipes, which apparently is a common instrument repair technique, especially with flutes. Now the dump slide does not pop out. And I swear the instrument plays better too, it seems to resonate more.

Hey Bach, this never should have left the factory in this state. I know the QA department looks for surface nicks and scratches, but maybe they need to focus more on the build quality. A new Bach Stradivarius should not just LOOK good, it should BE good.
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Vince.Green
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll ad to this a bit. I'm very familiar with horns, brands etc. I've was playing a Yamaha Chicago C for about ten years and have had no reason to switch.

About two years ago I had more more than a dozen horns dropped off at our university by a rep which myself and a colleague had a chance to play. Of the dozen or so both my colleague and I really liked a Philly C in the group. I just couldn't put it down. In the end he bought it and later I purchased it from him as it was a better fit for me and he wasn't using it as much. For me, it's the best C I've played and I liked it well enough to eventually part with my Yamaha Chicago.

The other side of the story is that at least half of these instruments had build issues. Slides were by far the main problems (over buffed and leaky as opposed to aligned properly) but there were also finish issues as well as some excess solder on joints misaligned tuning crooks and receivers etc. Consistency between them wasn't stellar either.

Bach has had ups and downs in consistency as most are well aware and seems to be better than some points in the past. That being said, I'm still surprised at what doesn't get pulled before it goes out. I'm not bashing and besides, given all that, I play a Bach Bb and C as in the end they're the best horns for me.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the previous two posters. That being said, it seems as if Bach is aware and paying attention, based upon the response I received from one of their on-line reps, and statements made by others here. Hopefully they will make whatever corrections necessary to prevent these sort of issues in the future. None of us can change past occurrences, we can only recognize problems and correct them moving forward. I don’t think anyone expects perfection from Bach or any other manufacturer, just the best possible efforts to produce high quality instruments and limit defects.

Brad
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ricardinny wrote:
Ir you like Bach trumpets, buy Yamaha ytr-9335 nys!


I have 6 Bachs. The closest I have come to the problems described here was a case of bad dealer prep like the Schilke story above - easily remedied. I also have 7 Yamahas. I have encountered 2 horns with issues: an over-reamed receiver and a tuning slide so loose (from factory) that it falls out and I have a strap to keep it from doing so. I have 3 Jupiters. One 1602 is a demo horn that in 18 months lost most of its plating and the brass is eroded away at the contacts. Another has the monel porosity issue they have struggled with sticking the valves. I have not personally seen issues with Schilke, but I am sure they exist too.

I would not hesitate to buy, recommend and play a Bach, Yamaha, or Schilke, or to recommend a Jupiter for students. All are fine instruments, and Bach is, as it has been for a half century, the standard against which the others are still compared and the choice of more serious players in every survey, decade after decade.

You can have issues with any brand of horn, and defects make it through everywhere. Encouraging people to not buy Bach, which is where what started as a reasonable concern has wound up, does a dis-service to all of us who will be left one day with whatever company no one cared enough about to criticize for all of the unknowing readers on the internet who will base buying decisions on these words, not actually trying the instrument.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
ricardinny wrote:
Ir you like Bach trumpets, buy Yamaha ytr-9335 nys!


<<snip>>

Encouraging people to not buy Bach, which is where what started as a reasonable concern has wound up, does a dis-service to all of us who will be left one day with whatever company no one cared enough about to criticize for all of the unknowing readers on the internet who will base buying decisions on these words, not actually trying the instrument.

I don't think most of us are encouraging people to not buy Bach, I certainly am not.

I have run a software QA department that oversaw a software product shipping over twelve million units a month for years. I understand testing challenges.

If my workers missed something so easy to check as a loose dump slide I would certainly have a serious discussion at a minimum.

It is my hope that Bach will see that some of their customers want, demand, a quality product and they will have that "serious discussion", as well as ongoing management oversight, with the workers responsible.
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fredo wrote:
In January, i ordered a 190 37 S and a 8335 S.

The 2 brand new, in plastic Wrap.

Bach : average slides, dirty and noisy valves, plating loss on the third slide (perfectly circular, 5 mm diameter)

Approximately 1500 $ more than the Yammie (discounted at 1990 Euros ! the 190 37 : 3299 euros)

Yamaha : flawless, perfectly clean and silent valves (no residue in the bottom caps 1 week later ...) perfect slides. and greatly improved sound on the 8335 2. perfect playability and intonation, very predictable (and even more with Yamaha mouthpieces).

The BACH was returned to Thomann who refunded it quickly with no questions ...


It's a mystery why people still blindly recommend 'x' horn, even with the numerous accounts of this. I'm not against any manufacturer (although, I am aligned with one).

So many teacher say "go get yourself a Strad'," to students who don't really know what they're looking for and just buy because of the name. I think that's partly to blame because a) there's a tonne of other manufacturers who make good quality horns for Bach pricing OR LESS b) these recommendations ensure that manufacturers don't up their game because they can sell on their name alone.
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
As I previously mentioned, EVERY instrument we sell gets prepped by a highly skilled technician before it is presented to our customers. Unlike large volume retailers, that’s the little bit extra you’re going to find here.

My two cents.


It's great to here other retailers do this. I think it's something the manufacturer (or distributor) should address, rather than passing on the cost to the retailer, but it's good to hear the customer gets the best potential horn they paid for.
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