Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:21 am Post subject: Trumpet VST's
Hi there, has anyone ever used trumpet VST's? I have been playing piano and trumpet now for about 15 years and my friend recently told me that there are some amazing VST trumpets.
Wonder if they're realistic and worth it for music production as sometimes it's easier to use VST's for budget purposes when recording.
Here's a resource that I found that I thought was helpful.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet VST's
musicfever99 wrote:
Hi there, has anyone ever used trumpet VST's? I have been playing piano and trumpet now for about 15 years and my friend recently told me that there are some amazing VST trumpets.
Wonder if they're realistic and worth it for music production as sometimes it's easier to use VST's for budget purposes when recording.
Here's a resource that I found that I thought was helpful.
What the heck are you talking about? I am a trumpet player myself and I also produce music. I found it cool. There will always be a place for live musicians.
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12659 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:40 am Post subject:
I read a little of the clickbait article, er advertisement, and your initial post is proof the author doesn’t know what he is talking about.
The reason people are using fake instruments is economic not due to how good the samples are getting.
Why not just use midi to play all the parts including piano?
Because there are things masters of the instrument can do that midi, or a keyboard imitating another instrument, cannot. Unfortunately most people cannot tell the difference.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:42 am Post subject:
I did a recording session once for an orchestral track that was going to be played for a musical. The brass parts were all synthesized and my job was just to record two trumpet parts to help flesh out the attacks and give it a more authentic sound. I was in the studio for an hour. My friend who was a keyboard player laid down all the other tracks, including low brass, woodwinds, and strings, and was in the studio five times as long as I was. He made a lot more money than I did that day.
Maybe we should all be keyboard players. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9008 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:47 am Post subject:
Rusty, one reason for using "real" instrument sounds vs. MIDI is the quality you can get on playback, if you have written for acoustic instruments.
What I mean is, composing/arranging a chart and you want the playback of the program (e.g. Sibelius or Finale, et al) as realistic as possible to monitor. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12659 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:20 am Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
Rusty, one reason for using "real" instrument sounds vs. MIDI is the quality you can get on playback, if you have written for acoustic instruments.
What I mean is, composing/arranging a chart and you want the playback of the program (e.g. Sibelius or Finale, et al) as realistic as possible to monitor.
I actually have done a lot of midi work, including reinforcing tracks for live performances. I do understand reasons to use and to not use fake instruments.
But I was simply replying to the OP’s link which says people are switching to VSTs because they sound better.
I just went back and reread the link and realized that I might have misread the author’s point. On second read he is comparing using synth sounds to VST replica sounds, not to actual instruments.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet VST's
John Mohan wrote:
musicfever99 wrote:
Hi there, has anyone ever used trumpet VST's? I have been playing piano and trumpet now for about 15 years and my friend recently told me that there are some amazing VST trumpets.
Wonder if they're realistic and worth it for music production as sometimes it's easier to use VST's for budget purposes when recording.
Here's a resource that I found that I thought was helpful.
Are you kidding? You think it's a cool idea to put clickbait on this website for a product that puts us trumpet players out of work?
Pretty much what I thought as well.
I’m currently reading “The Song Machine”, it’s an interesting (and depressing) discussion of a lot of today’s music.
The OP says “There will always be a place for live musicians”...... he should read this book. Personally, I find the subject of his post to be many things, “cool” is not among them.
And BTW, this doesn’t only affect the full time pro trumpet players, part time cover band guys like me are also affected. It’s cheaper and easier to use a keyboard to cover horn parts than it is to employ wind musicians, and as pointed out, the general public unfortunately can’t tell the difference.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 7:47 am Post subject:
Sort of reminds me a the debate over taps live vs electronic bugle (read: buggle). If you want to create music all by yourself in an electronic gym, go ahead. But just get a machine to write the music too, and we'll dump people completely. Who needs 'em? They consume resources and make a mess. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:13 am Post subject:
veery715 wrote:
Sort of reminds me a the debate over taps live vs electronic bugle (read: buggle). If you want to create music all by yourself in an electronic gym, go ahead. But just get a machine to write the music too, and we'll dump people completely. Who needs 'em? They consume resources and make a mess.
That’s a valid point regarding Taps, but I’m not sure there’s ever been much of a debate. I think the only people who would be in favor of those ridiculous fake bugles would be military brass who claim they don’t have enough musicians. Maybe they don’t, but a Milli Vanilli bugler is laughable and disrespectful to veterans. He**, IMO a recording of Taps would be preferable to a guy standing there holding a bugle with a Mattel insert in the bell.
But we seem to be at a point in time where faking it in music performance has sadly become acceptable, as long as it LOOKS good in cosmetic appearances.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Mon May 27, 2019 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 10:58 am Post subject:
boog wrote:
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."...O.C. Bible
-Terminology of the Imperium, Frank Herbert, "Dune", ca. 1965
Somehow I don't think that's ever going to happen. Machines might actually be perfect. Human fallibility isn't codeable. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 11:22 am Post subject:
LittleRusty wrote:
veery715 wrote:
boog wrote:
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."...O.C. Bible
-Terminology of the Imperium, Frank Herbert, "Dune", ca. 1965
Somehow I don't think that's ever going to happen. Machines might actually be perfect. Human fallibility isn't codeable.
I dunno. I work in software and fallibility is the name of the software game.
Time and money pressure as well as sloppy or inept engineers ensures that we probably will never see “perfect”.
I agree with you. Having spent over 50 years working with computers, I know we've hard coded plenty of "mistakes." All the perfection in the world will not root out those errors.
But I think it's all good. Creating computers in our likeness leaves the realm of the perfect to a higher authority. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
This is a fascinating topic to me, and since I dabble in audio engineering I've had experience using virtual instruments.
In the metal genre, albums are being produced and released with more often than not completely sampled drums, and 100% quantized everything to the grid. I've recorded guitarists who clearly aren't good players but try to get their takes close then are content with me quantizing to the grid. I've always thought it a shame to quantize takes, at that point is it any different than sample replacing everything? An issue currently is that music is sterile because of all of the perfection chasing that laptop studios make possible. They aren't looking at creating music as a musician anymore but instead like an engineer or technician. The end product is all that matters, which in today's world I understand why.
As is the case with everything in the modern age, the cure is in the poison.
Samples used in the context of being a tool for getting creativity flowing is where their purpose is best served. It's pretty cool to put together a VST orchestra and patch them all together and play around with chord progressions, these tools can get me into new creative spaces.
While many people cannot heae the difference of a vst vs real player live, they can feel it. There is nothing like the palability of energy watching a real player leave it all out there in a live performance.
As a society our standards of recorded music has definitely shifted, I just hope the genuine appreciation of skill and musicianship doesn't completely vanish with it.
This is a fascinating topic to me, and since I dabble in audio engineering I've had experience using virtual instruments.
In the metal genre, albums are being produced and released with more often than not completely sampled drums, and 100% quantized everything to the grid. I've recorded guitarists who clearly aren't good players but try to get their takes close then are content with me quantizing to the grid. I've always thought it a shame to quantize takes, at that point is it any different than sample replacing everything? An issue currently is that music is sterile because of all of the perfection chasing that laptop studios make possible. They aren't looking at creating music as a musician anymore but instead like an engineer or technician. The end product is all that matters, which in today's world I understand why.
As is the case with everything in the modern age, the cure is in the poison.
Samples used in the context of being a tool for getting creativity flowing is where their purpose is best served. It's pretty cool to put together a VST orchestra and patch them all together and play around with chord progressions, these tools can get me into new creative spaces.
While many people cannot heae the difference of a vst vs real player live, they can feel it. There is nothing like the palability of energy watching a real player leave it all out there in a live performance.
As a society our standards of recorded music has definitely shifted, I just hope the genuine appreciation of skill and musicianship doesn't completely vanish with it.
The reality of modern digital recording is that a competent engineer can fix virtually anything. All it takes is time. And time is money.
This is about recording. Live performance is a completely different animal.
There is absolutely no way that any synthesized version will ever have the impact of live musicians.
Shows that have a lot of musical component like Cirque de Soliel will inevitably use more and more synthetic sound. It's manifest destiny. I won't be terribly surprised to hear that Broadway shows are following this trend.
But in a concert setting, be it orchestral, pop, rock or jazz, the supporting roles played by instrumental musicians are irreplaceable.
And just in time for the paradigm shift that has been happening for the last couple of decades. It used to be that the artist would tour to support the sales of their latest recording. Nowadays, all of the income is generated by touring.
This is where the opportunity lives for performing instrumentalist
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