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Miles Blue In Green Scale ??


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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Miles Blue In Green Scale ?? Reply with quote

Really love Miles Blue in Green. I bought the Hal Leonard Play Along which is not even close to the original and only provides an approximated few bars to the original. It does however sound to be following the scale base of the original. I can't seem to figure out that scale or mode though. Wish I could post a chart image here. Key signature is D but two of the three C# notes are naturalized back to C and it has other anomalies like D# in it. Any fans out there that might know ? Alternatively, a recommended way to get the chart posted here ? Thanks.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looked at the entire transcription on YouTube. Check that out if you have not already. Has all the voicing and solos.

There is nothing unusual in it. Perfect textbook examples of how to play over altered dominant etc by generalizing the the natural, harmonic and occasionally melodic minor scales in D minor
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Just looked at the entire transcription on YouTube. Check that out if you have not already. Has all the voicing and solos.

There is nothing unusual in it. Perfect textbook examples of how to play over altered dominant etc by generalizing the the natural, harmonic and occasionally melodic minor scales in D minor


I see a few listings on YT . Can you clarify with a link ? Also when you said the D minor scales, did you mean relative minors to D major ?

Also, at least on my chart, which I still don't know how to post here, I'm seeing some notes that do not fall into the scales you listed. I'll look forward to the link and see maybe it's quite a bit different.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one has everything. You need to know :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E-4kZ-_lrJY


With the exception of the Cm7 chords, everything in it is in the D minor family of scales. D Minor, D harmonic minor, D melodic minor. The Cm7 chords would normally be dominant (c7) in that type of descending Dm C7 Bb maj A7alt “hit the road jack” progression, but here they did it m7 which throws in an Eb. The A7alt chords occasionally have the flat 5 (Eb) as well. That is normal for A7alt.

This is textbook correctness for. How jazz or any music for that matter, (Bach etc) “works” in a minor key.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I didn't see the trumpet chart on that video so I went over to the Clay Johnson transcription. As a rank amateur, I did not see the D key signature on the staff, for any of the videos, so that's throwing me off also. Cheers.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnvEdhy8nsSX_aZjaG7Cd8thUvqeNItq/view
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trumpet part and all the parts are on the video. It’s a transcription of everything. Study the bill evans voicing to really see how music works. It’s not complicated. Music theory is not complicated
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rothman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exploring modern dom 7th...Naima

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DVG2pMDq_XU
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
Exploring modern dom 7th...Naima

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DVG2pMDq_XU


It's all geek to me. I didn't understand a word of it nor could I relate it to the song Blue in Green. Sorry. Maybe I'm demanding too much simplicity out of a song structure that has none. I just wanted to know if Miles was adhering to 1 or more scales for that song. I'm also surprised to see/hear that this is played around dominant 7ths and not major 7ths as I hate the sound of the former for their cliched and tiring use in blues and love the latter for their uplifting jazzy sound.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this in my search and it's actually something I might be able to wrap my brain around. just curious as to whether anyone concurrs or thinks I've made a wrong turn ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjXqRetKcn8
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s a good video
Of course it all revolves around the flat 7 so don’t know compatible it all might be seeing your aversion to the flat 7.

As far simplicity goes you seem to be ignoring my first reply. Blue n green is simple, and they are playing simply, and all the answers to your questions are in the transcription. Can not be more simple
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
That’s a good video
Of course it all revolves around the flat 7 so don’t know compatible it all might be seeing your aversion to the flat 7.

As far simplicity goes you seem to be ignoring my first reply. Blue n green is simple, and they are playing simply, and all the answers to your questions are in the transcription. Can not be more simple


Not ignoring your previous reply, rather failed to mention that that answer was pretty close to what I needed, My bad, sorry. i need a good instructor, more than anything else, but hard to find, where i live.

If what Miles/ Evans are playing are flat 7's, they sound a lot nicer here than the annoying flat 7's I hear in blues shuffles all the time.....too many times. I guess it's context. i'm surprised to hear it was dominant and not major.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s not dominant.
It’s minor
“minor” really means three things
Natural minor
Harmonic minor
Melodic minor
Sometimes Dorian minor....4 things

This tune a real good example of how those things get used in a minor key.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
It’s not dominant.
It’s minor
“minor” really means three things
Natural minor
Harmonic minor
Melodic minor
Sometimes Dorian minor....4 things

This tune a real good example of how those things get used in a minor key.


Well I am confused now, for sure. Is not the chord progression loaded with dominant 7ths ?? I get the bit about playing the minor scales on top of it.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As this project unfolds, keep in mind that Miles & Gang used only the sketchiest of guidelines, using a nebulous and floating harmonic guideline to the charts. They used their EARS first and foremost.

I suggest playing along with the recording and letting your intuition be your guide. LISTEN to what you are doing. This sounds simplistic, but if a note/scale works, use it and if it doesn't, don't.

You sound like either you are overthinking this or are totally underequipped to deal with the theoretical aspects of it.

Again, I suggest that you use your ears first and then, and only then, get some theoretical understanding to clarify what it needs from you.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
As this project unfolds, keep in mind that Miles & Gang used only the sketchiest of guidelines, using a nebulous and floating harmonic guideline to the charts. They used their EARS first and foremost.

I suggest playing along with the recording and letting your intuition be your guide. LISTEN to what you are doing. This sounds simplistic, but if a note/scale works, use it and if it doesn't, don't.

You sound like either you are overthinking this or are totally underequipped to deal with the theoretical aspects of it.

Again, I suggest that you use your ears first and then, and only then, get some theoretical understanding to clarify what it needs from you.


I'm thinking maybe I should go downtown and get some heroin also but I'm deathly afraid of needles.

I can certainly lay out those D minor scales and dabble along with them. I think the source of some of my confusion was the Hal Leonard chart that I still haven't figure out how to post. Neither of the 3 D minor scales map very well on to that chart. There are always those notes popping up that aren't in the scales. They sound good but don't fit the scales. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my original post.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to stop looking at the chart for awhile and just play along with the recording. Sketch out the melody yourself, find the "color" notes that Miles and Evans play that make specific chords sound different and interesting, and note them. Play along and see what you can do that sounds like it's in that universe.

THEN go back to the lead sheet and see if you can figure out what's going on.

I tend to think of scales as a way to explain a sound, not a guide for how to get a sound, if that makes any sense. If one is flexing to remember all the notes in a scale one ends up spending a lot of attention on mechanics and much less on making musical sounds. (All In My Humble Opinion, of course.)
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazz_trpt wrote:
You might want to stop looking at the chart for awhile and just play along with the recording. Sketch out the melody yourself, find the "color" notes that Miles and Evans play that make specific chords sound different and interesting, and note them. Play along and see what you can do that sounds like it's in that universe.

THEN go back to the lead sheet and see if you can figure out what's going on.

I tend to think of scales as a way to explain a sound, not a guide for how to get a sound, if that makes any sense. If one is flexing to remember all the notes in a scale one ends up spending a lot of attention on mechanics and much less on making musical sounds. (All In My Humble Opinion, of course.)


Your point is well taken. That Harmon mute and the way it was miked is a huge part of the sound. I was asking to satiate my curiosity and give me an outline for improvising and maybe even crafting my own music with that sound as a theme. I thought it would be good song analysis for understanding modal jazz.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i cant quite wrap my head around the idea of you not simply looking at the transcription. That has all of the notes that are played on the record including the piano voicings. Why are you looking at a hal leonard arrangement?

If you look at the transcription, and look at the chords, and then look at the notes used by miles and coltrane you learn what the chords meant to them. This is a real "texbook example" of how to play over a chord, how to use a scale, how the chords and scales relate etc. And its totally basic, and very understandable.

a coupe of times there is a chromatic passing tone, but both players stick remarkably close to just using "minor" (natural, sometimes harmonic, and more rarely melodic)

Its a great tune to start out learning this stuff cuz its so clear and basic

if you have a question about a particular bar go ahead and ask, but i bet if you just look at that bar and look at the notes, you will see the answer to the question.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt.... I was looking at it from the perspective of it's published history and what those involved in it's making said about it's underlying theory. Apparently, so I'm told, the album was based on the theories of George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization. It's hard to find any stories about the album, without reference to Russel's ideas and his meeting with Miles and Evans.

"n 1953, the pianist George Russell published his Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization,[3] which offered an alternative to the practice of improvisation based on chords and chord changes. Abandoning the traditional major and minor key relationships, the Lydian Chromatic Concept introduced the idea of chord/scale unity and was the first theory to explore the vertical relationship between chords and scales, as well as the only original theory to come from jazz. These insights helped lead the way to the "modal" approach in jazz.[4] Influenced by Russell's ideas, Davis implemented his first modal composition with the title track of his studio album Milestones (1958). Satisfied with the results, Davis prepared an entire album based on modality.[5] Pianist Evans, who had studied with Russell but had departed from the Davis group to pursue his own career, was drafted back into the new recording project, the sessions that would become Kind of Blue."
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abraxas, please don't misunderstand this. I am not being disingenuous or condescending. I just don't understand what you are after.

If it's musical, refer to the transcribed material, but most of all, use your ear. Enjoy the discovery.

If it's historical material, the information is already available.

If it's The Lydian Chromatic Concept and how those theories apply to Kind of Blue, that's something else . . and can be a bag of worms.

What, specifically, do you want? I thought it was to explore the how and why of the use of various scale forms in Kind of Blue.
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