Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:59 am Post subject: Unimprovisation
Hi,
This is about a small agony I have had.
I am a beginner-intermediate level amateur player.
And I take some elementary improvisation class offered
from a university professor to the general public.
In this class, the professor told us what scale or chord to use for sections of tunes;
so, I can simply follow and enhance the improvisation to prepare for a small concert at the end of the semester.
The thing is that I usually "improvise" in the classes; but,
I get to memorize the flow for the concert, so that it becomes unimprovisation.
(Maybe because of pressure?)
At least I do not write down things for the concert, so I cannot replicate everything.
But, my improvisations are still based on the memorization which is quite opposite direction of Jazz.
I personally think the memorization step is okay or even necessary to build up my own improvisation eventually.
If this is true, do I just need to add one more step to forget everything in my mind?
I know this is a vague question.
If some of you had a similar question in the early days,
please give me some comments or tips to deal with this irony.
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2412 Location: Maryland
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject:
What you're describing is common. It was probably something I did, back when I was starting out.
In a way, all improvisation is well-rehearsed, and is the result of thousands of hours working on scales, patterns, and the jazz repertoire. Hopefully, what we play is personalized in some way. And the better you get, the more you will personalize your solos, and the more you'll become creative on-the-fly.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9008 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:29 pm Post subject:
Are you saying that the more familiar with a tune you become, the more your improvisation becomes a bit repetitive because you are now repeating ideas that were previously completely spontaneous?
If so, welcome to the club. The more you study improvisors, the more you will hear repeated, or modified, ideas from previous improvisations. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:19 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the kind advice, TrumpetMD and kehaulani.
I study Statistics and for Statisticians,
it is a certainly good news if something is convergent.
It generally means I can extract some signals from the noise.
However, I feel the opposite when I try to improvise.
Once my improvisation starts to be convergent or repetitive, then
I feel uncomfortable and try to free up the line to a random status.
(So, this is what I am doing in the improv. class not at the concert.)
This might be due to my prejudice about how Jazz improvisation should be...
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 269 Location: Australia
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:22 pm Post subject:
fblues wrote:
However, I feel the opposite when I try to improvise.
Once my improvisation starts to be convergent or repetitive, then
I feel uncomfortable and try to free up the line to a random status.
(So, this is what I am doing in the improv. class not at the concert.)
This might be due to my prejudice about how Jazz improvisation should be...
Ahhhh... this debate will go on forever, because realistically there are prerequisites to musical improvisation (generally, at least in jazz there is). Truly improvising would be to approach a new instrument(s), with no limitations, and be 'free' to 'play'.
Learning how to play through and with harmony (through scales, chords, transcriptions, etc), and learning how to play your instrument(s) are prerequisites of playing jazz (again, in general). The alternative is to improvise 'freely' which can be quite liberating, but also doesn't always sound stylistically correct, or make harmonic sense, etc. But, even the best free improvisers set goalposts to work within and will have an in depth knowledge of the form and harmony so that they can work within a framework.
There's a lot of myth around improvisation. Most of the really great players I've heard are 10% improvising in a pure sense, and 90% just using vocabulary that they really like and have practiced a lot and know sounds really good in specific places.
What's the difference between a good improviser and a bad one? A good one sounds better.
What's the difference between a player who has spent some time working out what they think would sound like a really good solo for that tune, and someone who is just completely winging it?
One sounds better than the other and gets more gigs...
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:02 am Post subject:
Think about how you have learned to speak. As a baby you listened and then started to imitate.
You "memorized" words and their meanings, and began learning accepted ways of stringing those words together.
You probably have not invented one single word that is in common usage, but you speak like nobody else does. Those who are familiar with you and have heard you speak can recognize your voice and the way you talk instantly.
It's really the same with improvising jazz. We have to develop a vocabulary that we can utilize in our own inimitable fashion. Learning the notes that spell out a chord sound is akin to knowing several words that apply to a certain subject. If you're going to give a talk somewhere, let's say, at a tech convention, you probably wouldn't use a lot of musical terms in your talk. Conversely, if you were going to speak at, say, a jazz convention, you probably wouldn't use a lot of medical terms in your talk.
Learning to improvise jazz is so much like learning a language. You don't spring from the womb able to converse with the great thinkers of our time. You stumble and sputter and make lots of blunders on your way to being able to speak fluently and cohesively.
Cut yourself some slack, my man. We all suck for a long, long time when we're learning how to play jazz. And even after a lot of years we may not always sound brilliant. That's what makes jazz such an incredibly great and imperfect art form. It's all about the moment. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
Go to the video below and listen to what Joe Magnarelli says at 32:53. He's talking in relation to composing at that point, but then he carries that into how it also applies to improvisation, so key in on what he says at 33:42.
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:24 am Post subject:
In our western music there are only 12 notes. There are somewhat less than an infinite number of combinations. Repitition is absolutely unavoidable. Plus, it's a necessary parameter in musical form. We hear a melody, a harmony, a rhythm, and our brains go: "I am waiting for that to come around again." _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:14 am Post subject:
I've just read the comments through.
Thank you for a lot of great advice!
I will rearrange my mind based on the advice.
(Still, I need to reread and think about the individual comments.)
At least, I am getting that I don't need to feel uncomfortable after repeating my solos.
I guess this issue is also related to the amount of practice time.
If I had put enough time for the practice, then
I could have resolved my feeling in some internal way.
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:57 am Post subject:
You've gotten a lot of good advice.
I would suggest not getting hung up on the concept of "improvising" as playing entirely without boundaries or rules or expectation of structure.
I (and others) tend to think of it as composing a melody in real time over the harmonic structure of a given piece (or portion) of music.
Most of the same melodic "rules" that apply to composing other types of music (e.g., classical, rock, folk) are fairly universal. But to internalize them to the point where you can construct a "good" solo (gratifying to execute, gratifying for the listener to hear) requires repeated listening and thinking about why and how those "rules" apply, either to a song/melody or to someone else's improvised solo.
There will necessarily be some repetition in your solos as your vocabulary and comfort level develop. I recommend integrating some practice on the piano, as well as recording yourself improvising (accompanied) for your own review and consideration. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!
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Gives us newbies and "returnees" (aka retirees) some hope that maybe, one day we just might achieve a we bit of improvisation.
