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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: Loud Range and Soft Range |
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Short story: How can become able to play high notes louder? My endurance when playing high and loud is very very poor, and the highest note I can ply loud is an F on top the staff. When I do manage to ply a High A or B in context, it’s so quiet it can’t be heard. |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 652
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:32 am Post subject: instructor |
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Have you talked to a trumpet teacher to help you with this issue? What mouthpiece are you using? _________________ No musical instrument at this time. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3275 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: |
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It seems that you joined TH about 2 years ago, and I'm guessing that you've been doing a routine of practice and playing for that long.
If you are in decent physical condition, e.g. no asthma, or other respiratory problem, then my thought is that you are using excessive mouthpiece pressure on your upper lip. That pressure is prohibiting the lip from vibrating with enough actual movement to produce loudness - you are getting the lip vibration for the pitch, but not enough lip movement to create sound with amplitude for loudness.
'Try this' - without the mouthpiece on your lips, move your lower jaw forward so you can feel your lower teeth being directly beneath the uppers, or slightly forward of the uppers.
Next, when playing a top-line-of-staff-F, move the lower jaw as before and FEEL a little of the mouthpiece pressure being transferred onto the lower lip & teeth, giving slightly less pressure on the upper lip & teeth. There shouldn't be any need to change the angle of the mouthpiece on your face to do this test, just a little lower jaw movement. The goal of this is to enable your upper lip to vibrate more freely, and produce loudness.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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jon, I have been working on range with my teacher for a long time. I played a Monette B3S3 and per my teachers request went to a GR 64M a few months ago. Neither mouthpiece makes a difference.
Jay, I think that is definitely a contributor. I don’t feel like I use excessive pressure, but now that you say that, I realize the pressure is geared toward my upper lip. Thank you for the feedback ! |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 892 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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be sure you know really how to breath for the trumpet playing, your chops coordination, your aperture control, your air pivot, etc are ok.
This allows you to play all the range.
Then, for playing loud, you need all the above items at a higher intensity, where muscular strength (facial, lips, abds) are required.
lessons on skype with John, or meet Bobby Shew, roger Ingram etc...
best
ps of course the wrong mpc can affect everything |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33,
If you have been working on range with your teacher for a long time and your range is as you describe, you need a “chop doc” to get you on the right path. I recommend Pops: www.bbtrumpet.com
There is no one better to get you on the right path chop wise.
I too had a range issues. When I started HS in 1975 I could play above High C. Now I needed improvement in a lot of areas and so my well-meaning teacher changed my embouchure, put me on a Bach 1.5, and I instantly couldn’t play above the staff. Three years later I still had no range so I switched to French Horn for my first year of college and then quit music all together for over 20 years.
I came back 18 years ago and all I knew as what didn’t work. Fortunately I found Pops the next year and he put me on the right path. At about 9 years into my comeback I was performing High Gs (the one above High C) and 15 years into my comeback I was performing Double Cs.
It doesn’t need to take anywhere nearly as long as I did to develop range. After all I am just an amateur whose still working on my skills. However, it sounds to me like you are in need of a chop doc. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Loud Range and Soft Range |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | Short story: How can become able to play high notes louder? My endurance when playing high and loud is very very poor, and the highest note I can ply loud is an F on top the staff. When I do manage to ply a High A or B in context, it’s so quiet it can’t be heard. |
Do you work on a specific routine? What equipment do you use? How much time do you spend each day playing?
Many players who struggle with the upper register overblow. The sound carries more than you think it does. Start working on playing above the staff with less volume. High notes don’t necessary equate with playing really loud.
Pete |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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If you want to be able to play REALLY loud, you have to back off the air and go for resonance and good intonation. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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If you're working with a teacher and the things that you want to happen aren't happening then you need to seriously consider a new teacher.
Your range, as you describe it, is abysmal. Range is not a horn thing or a mouthpiece thing. Nor is it a strength thing. It is a technique thing and you are apparently not being taught (or not learning) the technique aspects of this.
I agree that "Pops" has the experience and ability to accurately diagnose any chop problem. Only you can fix the problem but it helps a lot to understand the problem fully and I think Pops can help you there. It's worth the investment. Pops can guide you through a problem that would otherwise take you years to understand. There's no reason to develop through trial and error when you have a resource like Pops available. He may not give you good news but he will give you accurate news. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:43 am Post subject: |
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How much and what do you practice? If you’ve been playing for at least two years, you DO put in the practice time (and by practice time I mean practicing at home, with whatever method books your teacher might be having you use; this is not including time in school band rehearsals), you’re practicing DAILY for at least an hour and you’re still basically stuck at fifth line F, maybe considering a different teacher, as others suggested, is something you should consider. Switching out different mouthpieces isn’t going to make much difference if you’re not doing the above.
But if you’re not doing the above, that may well be a big part of the problem. I’m absolutely not trying to be discouraging here, but trumpet is not an instrument that comes easily for most people without putting in correct and adequate practice. You probably need to be very honest with yourself regarding how much you’re putting into it before considering whether you need a different teacher. I have first year students who are doing very well, and second/third year students who are not, the reason in most cases is how much effort they are putting into it.
You absolutely can get to where you want to be if you really (REALLY) try!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Brad, I exceed what you said and practice daily for about two hours and have been doing that for two years. My teacher thinks the problem may be breathing issues. I have recently begun taking lessons from an assistant principal player in a major orchestra and am hoping these help my range and overall playing.
Only in the past 5 months or so has my range really been bad; prior to that it was just my inability to play high with power. Now it’s that and I can hardly ever play the notes.
I do REALLY want it, I have tried all I can think of. More than anything I want these issues out of the way so I can just make music. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | Brad, I exceed what you said and practice daily for about two hours and have been doing that for two years. My teacher thinks the problem may be breathing issues. I have recently begun taking lessons from an assistant principal player in a major orchestra and am hoping these help my range and overall playing.
Only in the past 5 months or so has my range really been bad; prior to that it was just my inability to play high with power. Now it’s that and I can hardly ever play the notes.
I do REALLY want it, I have tried all I can think of. More than anything I want these issues out of the way so I can just make music. |
Understood, and glad to hear that. I was not taking shots at you, it’s just that quite often we see younger players describe a difficulty, and in reality much of it could be addressed with practice.
I sounds as if you’re probably on the right track with your teacher, hang in there, you can overcome it.
Best of luck!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3275 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | ... My teacher thinks the problem may be breathing issues. I have recently begun taking lessons from an assistant principal player in a major orchestra and am hoping these help my range and overall playing.
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Hopefully the new lessons will help. And maybe if you do some self-analysis of 'breathing issues' that might assist getting the issues resolved.
e.g.
Are you able to do a 'full inhale', and then hold your breath for about 45 seconds without getting light-headed? If not, then that's something to investigate.
When you play, does your throat feel like it is constricting, and prevents 'blowing' with adequate quantity and pressure? That might be nervousness, or perhaps you're doing some extreme 'tongue raise/arch' that is preventing air movement. If you do use tongue movement, maybe concentrate on the movement being the forward portion of the tongue and not the middle or rear portions - the middle and rear will follow (as necessary) the front portion movement.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | Brad, I exceed what you said and practice daily for about two hours and have been doing that for two years. My teacher thinks the problem may be breathing issues. I have recently begun taking lessons from an assistant principal player in a major orchestra and am hoping these help my range and overall playing.
Only in the past 5 months or so has my range really been bad; prior to that it was just my inability to play high with power. Now it’s that and I can hardly ever play the notes.
I do REALLY want it, I have tried all I can think of. More than anything I want these issues out of the way so I can just make music. |
I also take lessons from a Symphony principal. And from my experience he will concentrate on playing well below g above the staff. He says that is what builds an upper register. I can play a hi g but the tambour of the note changes above hi c and he stresses having the same fullness as stuff in tHe staff, he says when I can do that I own that note (play it as long as I pay the rent it requires. I can somewhat see what he’s saying but I still do expanding flexibilities and scales ay least a half hour a day. I still practice everything we work on and try as well as I can to do it as he teaches, I just don’t think that to him I need to work on that.
There are a lot of guys who have figured how to play hi in different ways. Each will tell you their way and some will work for you and most wont. What I did was to look at consensus things (not very many) like keeping upper lip free enough to vibrate at alll times, maintain continuous air, learn to speed the air up when you need to ascend, avoid upper torso tension, etc.. and then see what info is available so that you understand the why, and maybe how to accomplish those things you see you need. This may give you the skill to do what you want if you see what works for you and then learn to coordinate all of it. Have you addressed this specific question with your teacher - like why can’t I play above f on the top line. And be ready to hear things like ‘you don’t practice, or , you don’t do the things I tell you to do - if you ask the question be ready for truthful answers. I would have thought if you had gone thru multiple lessons he would have a good idea if physical restrictions were in play and I would think he would tell you that. Even if he doesn’t know today you have asked him a question that will be on his mind as you progress. If he says ‘ I donno ‘ and shows little interest about your range then run to another teacher. Lord I rambled. But I do think you should read up on these factors that can be agreed upon, asses yourself honestly then look at the different methods for achieving your goals and pick those that work for you.
Rod |
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Tberar New Member
Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Claude Gordon’s daily trumpet routines and systematic approach really help out! |
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MF Fan Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 Posts: 397 Location: The Great White North
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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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You don't have a high note problem, you have a playing fundamentals problem. Capping out at an F on top of the staff after two years of consistent playing proves it out. Since you've been with a teacher the whole time and have not made appreciable progress tells me you need a new teacher. Probably a combination of chop setting and breath support, both of which are easily addressed by a competent teacher, assuming you don't some other unique physical limitation. I don't recall if you mentioned which city you live in, but I imagine members will have many suggestions for teachers within a hour or two of your location, not to mention all the qualified teachers giving lesson online these days.
Good luck. _________________ MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hello there! Thanks for all the replies. After a few more frusturating days of practice I finally bought a month of Greg Spence’s MTM WindWorks course. I love it so far and am excited for where it’ll take me! |
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