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Yamaha 2nd slide valve , switching out 1st slide trigger



 
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Yamaha 2nd slide valve , switching out 1st slide trigger Reply with quote

Bought a Yamaha 431 trumpet, from Shop goodwill.com. The 2nd valve appears to have a dent in it. Wondering if I could replace it with one from a later Yamaha trumpet?

Would it be possible to replace the 1st slide trigger with a thumb ring?
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mbauer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Yamahas parts are readily available so a replacement 2nd slide shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure the diameters are the same. However, as long as there is no crack in the slide, a repair shop could take the dent out for cheaper. It won't look perfect, but can look pretty smooth from a good tech.

Also yes to your second question. That would definitely require a repair tech, or at least someone with soldering experience, but evidence of where the trigger was soldered will remain on the valve block.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Yamaha 2nd slide valve , switching out 1st slide trigger Reply with quote

Good to know, wonder if they are a standard size?

Two techs said they couldn't switch the 1st slide trigger to a thumb hook on my Getzen Capri trumpet. One of the reasons I am selling it. The other two are the Amado water keys and the 3rd slide adjustable ring.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha 2nd slide valve , switching out 1st slide trigger Reply with quote

jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote:
Good to know, wonder if they are a standard size?

Two techs said they couldn't switch the 1st slide trigger to a thumb hook on my Getzen Capri trumpet. One of the reasons I am selling it. The other two are the Amado water keys and the 3rd slide adjustable ring.


The 431 is an older model. Contrary to popular belief, not all older Yamaha parts are readily available. You'll have to check with a shop to see if it's available - or maybe someone on here will chime in. I do know that many newer Yamaha parts are different in exact dimensions than the older 3-digit models.

Also, why did the techs say they couldn't switch the 1st slide trigger to a thumb hook? It's not rocket science. You simply need a thumb hook with a flange that can be soldered on to the end of the 1st slide. I don't remember if there is something like that in Allied.

http://www.electrotheremin.com/038a.jpg



https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/2496087508_c29d393643_m.jpg


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mbauer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha 2nd slide valve , switching out 1st slide trigger Reply with quote

Quote:
The 431 is an older model. Contrary to popular belief, not all older Yamaha parts are readily available. You'll have to check with a shop to see if it's available - or maybe someone on here will chime in. I do know that many newer Yamaha parts are different in exact dimensions than the older 3-digit


Sorry about what I said before then. Didn't realize the slides had changed.
I will say that in my experiences with a shop, salvaged Yamaha parts are common and a used slide might be a possibility.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:06 am    Post subject: thumb hook Reply with quote

Wondered that myself. I talked to two techs said it was impossible, the placement of the thumb hook wouldn't be right. Haven't talked to the third tech I use in Ann Arbor about it.

Will be selling the Getzen Capri trumpet. The tech in Ann Arbor could modify it the way I want. But it probably would cost about what I paid for the trumpet. Not cost effective for me.

The cost of replacing the Amado waterkeys with traditional water keys on my Getzen Capri cornet was over $150.00. Bought it for about $200.00 dollars.

So I bought a Yamaha 431 trumpet for $202.00 dollars, it has the 3rd slide fixed ring and traditional water keys. Will decide in the future if I want to change 1st slide trigger to a thumb hook.

Knowing me if I don't sell the Getzen Capri trumpet, I will find someone to modify it.

After six years of playing I am liking the sound I producing on my horns. Think it is me not the instrument. Trying not to get attached to any one brand or model of trumpet.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha parts 24x7 website, regrettably, does not show YTR-431 among listed models. If you can measure the OD of the slide and ID of the receiving legs on the casing (these should be very close), you might be able to find a match among the available Yamaha models.
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steevo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no reason that your Capri won't support a thumb hook. A hook like Crazy Finn showed will work fine, or it is possible that a competent tech could reverse the slide. My Getzen Eterna Cornet and Eterna C trumpet both came with hooks from the factory, and these work great. The geometry of the valve blocks (port positions) are identical to your Capri.

There are many techs that are regularly mentioned in the forums that would have no issues converting this for you. (I think I saw a post recently from James Becker at Osmun Music saying that he had the hooks for the non-reversed slides in stock.)

Good luck!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Getzen Capri 590 is a big challenge to add a thumb saddle to. Take a look at the 590-S (the same horn, but with a half-reversed first slide and a saddle). The slide assembly sits forward enough of the centerline of the horn that the saddle has to lean inward at a steep angle. To make a crook-attaching saddle for one of these would be a bit tricky, and would result in putting a significant moment on the crook where it attaches. Achieving smooth operation would require both perfect maintenance of the slide surfaces and training one's hand to move rather awkwardly (to not push the slide sideways you would have to keep the end segment of the thumb straight as it moved in space along the axis of the horn, letting it slide on the saddle as the lower thumb segment levered - it feels really awkward to me trying it - not sure I could do it)

Only way I see is to rebuild the slide itself first - and for a Capri, that's a lot of $$$
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a restatement of what OldSchoolEuph described above - but reworded ...

Here's a picture of a 590 with a factory 1st valve saddle.
[img]
https://media.guitarcenter.com/is/image/MMGS7/590S-S-Capri-Series-Bb-Trumpet-With-1st-Valve-Saddle/461329000000000-00-500x500.jpg [/img]

The 1st slide sets far right of the valves, and the slide is not tilted inward.
Best operation of a slide is when the push/pull pressure is aligned with the plane of the centerlines of BOTH slide tubes. And that's awkward to do with a saddle on the 590 design. If the pressure is not aligned and applied properly, it will cause the tubes to attempt to twist, and will bind.

My guess is that a 1st valve saddle wouldn't work as well as desired ...

Jay
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:06 am    Post subject: Thumb hook Reply with quote

Thanks Old School and Jay. That explains why neither of the tech wanted to make the change.

Sold the Getzen Capri Trumpet on ebay.

I received the Yamaha 431 trumpet yesterday. It does have a 1st slide trigger. Received all the parts and brought the trumpet to the tech.

Got the trumpet back Friday. The tuning slide is unstuck and the valve stem was replaced. Haven't yet, switched out the 1st slide trigger.

Do like the sound of this trumpet, but it will take some time to get used to it.

Wonder how it compares to the Yamaha 4335 trumpet.

Time to focus more on my playing, especially the slurs.
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Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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