One and a half year update and pedal tones

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

While I do know of some very well respected and highly capable high note artists who don't like like pedals? It seems to me that the majority of good players do like them. Sandoval for one.

Update. It's been a year and a half since I permanently changed over to an embouchure radically different from what I had once played before. 54 years in fact had I played my former method. In large part my reasoning for the switch was due to a career ending injury to my chops. Yes this was absolutely devastating. At the risk of violating the rule against spouting religion in the forum? I honestly pray to God that none of you will ever have to go through the loss of your own chops. Not such as did happen to me. Okay, finished with prayer. Can I get an "A-men"?

That aside? My grief has ended. Not only am I rehearsing in bands but playing fun if amateur concerts too. Having the time of my life. Hey, it's not so easy going through a major embouchure change. To give you a mere glimpse of how difficult the change is? The way I play today has the horn rising 21 degrees higher off my chops than it did before. Previously I had one of those very common downward horn angles. The bell of the horn often playing directly into the bottom of the music stand. Now?

Lol. I sometimes screw up cut offs. Because the bell of the horn blocks out the orchestra director. Small problems. Point is? I can play once again.

Of course just being able to play trumpet isn't enough. I longed for my former powerful and pretty decent upper register. Well that's coming along too. However I had hit kind of a stymie around the beginning of this recently past June. My endurance on high notes wasn't improving much. This was a concern. Because if the length of time I can play say A above high C isn't increasing? Then it isn't going to improve. I thought that maybe I oughta try something different.

I remembered how some 45 plus years ago that by practicing pedal tones my upper register got bigger. So that's exactly what I did. After playing a couple short Clarke exercises I'd finish my warm up with some "Maggio-like" pedals. Not the more severe Claude Gordon type. Just the simple, press all three valves down pedals. Then after a cup of coffee? Start working on my upper register. I've always found that incorporating a short rest period after a warm up was very beneficial. I began a series of even more "Maggio-like" exercises but this time they were arpeggios into the upper register instead of pedals. Upon reaching the high C I'd rest a short spell. Maybe blow a double pedal note to clear my chops. Then proceed chromatically up to high F and G. Solid notes were coming out. That and well connected to my middle register below.

Not bad for a first year instrumentalist huh?

Okay after ascending to high G I played another short chorus of pedals, and then rested a couple minutes. Then ascended up to whatever I would have on a given day. Usually something between an A over High C to F/DHC. Yeah really!

Soon as my sound would cut out? I'd play another chorus of pedals, rest and return to a series of ascending arpeggios but from below high C. This is all classic Maggio playbook material although I was and am just working off my memory. I haven't had Louis Maggio's book for many years.The only part not usually associated with Maggio is the high horn angle. That I sorta "stole" from Stevens-Costello. It feels important to me to mention that pedals are definitely NOT a part of Stevens-Costello. Roy Stevens was emphatic about this. However the pedal tones just seem to work pretty doggone well for me. And this is an important concept too. To stay open-minded. Take what works, leave the rest.

After doing this for just one week OMG I've damn near started becoming able to play high F's and G's for much longer periods before they decay to lower tones. And my extreme register, like Double C to F/DHC has become more dependable. In short whatever had once stymied my development was gone.

I think that what happened is that pedals tones (among other things) increase the resonance of the vibrating portion in the upper lip. In addition their usage helps increase the amount of time I can practice the high notes. By reinvigorating my upper lip. That and helping to return blood circulation and clear up swelling. Also, as I said increasing resonance. The benefits are twofold,

Temporarily returning my ability to blow say High F and G after getting too tired to continue.. And,
Improving the resonance characteristics of my chops in general.

Wow... While just a couple weeks ago I was stymied. Wondering when the heck I'd ever get past this stymie and onto a higher plane. Now? My endurance in both practice room and rehearsal greatly increased. I practiced nearly two hours of high notes alone today. Along with plenty of pedals in between. In fact I could practice even longer tonight but caution tells me to give it a rest. As the one down side to pedals is that they can revive a set of swollen, tired chops a little too well. When your chops need rest? Give it to them! Only a fool continues playing on burnt out chops.

Always best to exercise some caution. I put the horn in the case until tomorrow.
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Seymor B Fudd

JorgePD · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:50 am Post subject:

Lionel congratulations on your success! Your post is quite timely for me. I’ve been working on petal tones for the past 5 months and I’ve found them to be very difficult for me. I haven’t made any progress. I still struggle with F below low F#! During this time my high range has improved a bit, but for the last month I have not made any improvement. I’ve been wondering if it’s embouchure issue.

I haven’t been able to practice for the past week due to a respiratory problem so I’ve spent my reading about the trumpet embouchure. Of all the different methods I find the Balanced Embouchure (BE) to be the most interesting.

Seymor B Fudd, I see you recommend it. I’m an amateur and a bit of an explorer as well! Have you experimented with other embouchure methods before trying BE?
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bach_again · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:19 am Post subject:

Nice one, Lionel!

WRT the BE comment - I don't think this is what Lionel is doing, personally. I took a lesson and studied BE for about a year. I don't play BE, but I have a slightly better than passing knowledge of it. I think Lionel is doing Maggio exercises along with some other stuff. The horn angle thing I wouldn't sweat. Just because you don't look like Carlton MacBeth doesn't matter - look at the images of him breathing and placing. It is pretty funny stuff!!

The angle may be your way of compensating for your chop damage - a teacher/mentor of mine had lip trauma during a busy career in his youth and he had to figure out how to play in short order. He did, and ended up playing upstream. His sound, stamina and range are amazing, as is his musicianship. Problems can be flipped with enough determination (within reason). I would say that you are right to proceed with caution wrt pedal tones esp if you are an upstream player now. It sounds like you already are being cautious and measured, but done improperly pedal tones can harm any embouchure, esp the upstream one.

You might enjoy reading Dr Reinhardt's materials as well as Rich Willey's continuation of DSR's teachings. There's some great lip compression exercises which tend to help me when I get out of focus. You seem like you have a technical enough mind so again DSR might be a nice avenue to look down. See what works and incorporate it into the routine.

If the pedal tones are working well, maybe consider Adam stuff, and perhaps look into the Gary Grant routine. I can send you a copy if you like. I don't think it violates any copyright as it is just a bunch of sheets collected in a PDF, it isn't a published work as far as I am aware. Happy to be corrected on this. It is hard enough to make a living at this as it is, I won't be that guy making it harder for someone else!

Best,
Mike
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mafields627 · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:40 am Post subject:

Just a thought since you are playing at such an extreme angle....consider having your mouthpiece professionally bent. A quick google search shows a lot of reputable shops (Reeves, Warburton, Osmun, and I'm sure many more) can bend up to 12 degrees. While you would still be playing upstream, it might get the bell down enough that you're not missing cutoffs.
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Bb Bob · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:43 am Post subject:

Hi Mike,

Would you explain “upstream” and “downstream” playing. I find my self guessing depending on the context and I have read you referring to those terms before.

BTW, Welcome Bach (couldn’t resist 😄)

Best regards,

Bob
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bach_again · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:26 am Post subject:

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:29 am Post subject:

INTJ · Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:37 pm Post subject:

I think pedals are one way (of many) help us eliminate tension, and tension is one of our top adversaries. I also find the didgeridoo and leap pipe playing help eliminate tension as well.

I play pedals all the time to help reduce tension. However I do NOT manipulate my chops just to get pedal C with open valves since that creates tension. I basically have to play a pedal B and lip up. So I stay relaxed and play pedal C with all the valves down.

Now I am sure there are those who can play an open pedal C without manipulating and tensioning their chops and if so, more power to them. It just doesn’t work for me anymore. And the less tension I use the bigger and easier is my hose range.
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Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

Wow. Thanks for all the responses guys.

Note, my computer is very touchy today. Often deleting posts. So before it screws me up again I'm going to post this second essay unfinished. Apologies in advance.

Seymor: I'm familiar with BE and occasionally post on their local forum here. I consider Jeff a great teacher and (hopefully?) A friend of mine.

Since my original post, as usual was long, i didnt explain what I think I've discovered as to WHY the pedal tones and "pooched" or rolled out chops work. But I will try once again.

Pedals and rolling out accomplish at least two and possibly more beneficial conditions. In upper register as well as just sound production we want a highly elastic texture on our upper lip and probably the lower lip too. Even though the lower lip doesn't vibrate (or it's not supposed to!) It appears helpful that the texture of the lower lip remains soft and pliable just like the upper lip. So that the two lips can mate and interact efficiently. Rolling out accomplishes this powerful condition. That's number 1 on my list.

2. Number two here means the change in the reaction of the chops created by the production of very low notes. Meaning that PEDAL TONES ACTUALLY SPUR ON THE GROWTH OF A MORE RESONANT FLESH in the vibrating portion of the chops!

Please take note here. Hope that I dont appear dogmatic or know-it-all-ish. But please believe! I've really discovered something important. As just in one short week alone I have found a way to increase my practice room and stage endurance dramatically though pedals. Not only that but have discovered the reason why pedals help the chops.

Being forced to start over on a far different embouchure has been an enormously educational condition for me. Being stripped down to a raw beginner has made me almost painfully aware of just how weak a young instrumentalist really is. If not for being forced to start completely over? I never would have realized exactly how frustrating it can be for both a raw beginner. Or an intermediate trumpet player attempting to play his first high notes. Its been too many years, five decades since I started trumpet and 45 at least since learning high notes. Starting to learn anyway. Wow I gotta get more succinct. Sorry! Put it this way.

It is my theory and I'm 100% convinced it's true that PEDAL TONES ACCELERATE A BIOLOGICAL PROCESS inside the vibrating portion of the lips. The massaging low pitched vibrations help re-circulate blood flow.

(Oh goodness my damned android deleted this post again. I hate that!)

Anyway... I knew that if I could just practice long periods of time in the upper register that I'd surely improve my high notes rapidly. And let's be honest, that's the name if the game. So to make a longbstory short,

By incorporating pedal tones in between various stages of my extreme upper register practice sessions I HAVE INCREASED THE AMOUNT OF TIME I CAN BLOW VERY HIGH NOTES some 300 to 500%.

This is a major revelation folks. Hope it works if you need it. That and I hope that my Android doesn't crash again before I hit "send".Also, I prefer the Maggio approach to pedals. It's a less digmatic way than Claude Gordon. Easier too. When I feel more secure about this android? I will explain. Just for now?

I'm not interested in impressing anyone with my pedal tone technique. So unlike Claude Gordon's method I play my pedals in the easiest fingerings possible. More later.
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JayKosta · Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:07 am Post subject:

INTJ · Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:21 am Post subject:

Interesting idea on pedals growing more flesh. It would seem unlikely that could happen in a week, but who knows? Pedals definitely help us relax and that is a huge benefit.

I missed the part of you first post about playing with more “pooch” or more roll out. That is spot on and taught by a lot of guys with strong upper registers. Pops talks about as buzzing in the aperture tunnel and Lynn Nicholson is a big proponent of rolling out for our upper range.

Rolling out in the upper range is counter to how BE is initially taught, although I’d bet Jeff Smiley would say the purpose of BE is to learn how to roll in and roll out as required and then find the right setting.

I think most players tend to play rolled in too much. It’s initially easier to get a high note that way but the sound is often thin and it takes more effort. When I get into my extreme upper register and wind up with a difficult and thin sound, I stop, roll out more, and usually play it again with a much bigger sound.
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Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

Whoa! Tumbleweeds blowing through here again...

Edited or deleted ALL this previous post. Because I finally broke through another frustrating plateau. And while the discussion of such hapoenstances is helpful I think? Yet at this point however I want to celebrate some positive matters. Like,

My chops FINALLY stopped feeling stiff and
swollen!

They responded by allowing me a half hour's worth of major key scales way up to F above DHC.. AGAIN SMOOTH SMOOTH tone which I attribute to my new embouchure.

I'd break out the champagne except that I prefer chocolare cake. Unless my G/F is around. What I'm trying to say guys is,

"Holy smoke fellows I DID IT"!!!
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

INTJ · Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:15 am Post subject:

Great news on your breakthrough! I often wonder what causes stiff chops. I assume the muscles become over-worked, like when my arms or legs ache after overworking them. The next day I can carefully warm up my arms and legs and get the stiffness out, but it seems with chops I am much more limited in my ability to do that. Often, chops need a whole day or two off.

I think my never ending task in trumpet life is to learn to play with less tension so I’ll have more endurance. That will also lead to less stuff chops. I think there are many components to improving endurance and include things like:

- Familiarity with the music. I find I play more tensely when I am unfamiliar with a tune, so improving my reading will help endurance.

- Harmonic understanding. Being more familiar with harmonic structure will make things more predictable, especially when reading, so working on improv skills will help my endurance

- The old standby to “trust your projection” and strive for a resonant sound, which require a more relaxed setting

- Improve my style and time. Focusing hard on those creates tension, which kills endurance

Amy trumpet playing goal is simply to be able to play lead for the two-hour Basie style sets my band does competently and be strong until the last note of the last tune.
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cgaiii · Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:44 am Post subject:

Interesting thread. Lionel, it is wonderful to hear success stories like yours.

I have for some time used pedal tones as a means of relaxing both the lip and the rest of the body. As many have said bad tension is always he enemy of trumpet playing, and playing pedal tones has been a great reset for me. I also find playing low notes on a trombone (bass trumpet) mouthpiece with just a leadpipe helps at times. I always end a practice session by descending from low C into the pedal tones for a relaxing ending, trying not to force anything, just let the notes fall where they may.
However, your active approach to the pedal tones, is quite fascinating. Thanks for sharing it with us.
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Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

OMG I turned yet another corner tonight.

1. First my 30 y/old student had a great lesson! He had played his first G above high C a week ago. But tonight he REALLY nailed the thing. I'm so pleased with his progress.

2. My own chops turned another corner. Since it's impossible to describe all the inner goings on of my embouchure let me just put it this way. This is what I discovered tonight.
A. In an "unlimited embouchure" the uppermost notes can become fairly easy. The price I paid for this is that my lower and middle registers are far trickier to produce competently than on my old chops. I realize that I'm not explaining this well. However on this new chop setting I must set my chops for the lower register "just so"...

There must be just the right opening between lower and upper lips.
Just the perfect "roll-in" on my lower lip.
Just the correct "pooch-out" of my lower lip. Etc.

And all of this must get more automatic. Not to mention that my uppervlip needs to grow in "resonance". As this happens my endurance increases.

When all this stuff lines up??

The upper register becomes easy! The paradox is that for the lower register everything must hold firm and "Just so". And yet once above the staff I just relax and blow plenty of air. The high Gs and DHC's are then simple. Really.
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chuck in ny · Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:22 pm Post subject:

pedals are just plain fun. i can't fathom why some players are so puritanical about them. among other things they are great for relaxing and refreshing.
my pedals are not quite up to arturo's level.

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

As I've discussed here before my chops have been excessively prone to over-training since early this past August. Not the common form of O/T like,

"Doggone it I shoulda put the horn down hours ago because I'm sounding like crap now) and I certainly know better than to keep over-doing it. Plus I got juries in the am and my chops are so stiff that it'll take me an hour just towarm up and get a decent tone out of the instrument".

It's not that problem. Because the quoted section describes someone who already has a fairly strong system. He's only gone out and over done it. If he could just postpone his jury and take a few days off he'd be fine. In my own case, however,and since making a major embouchure change over a year ago I find myself working on a whole new set of muscles that due to never being used before are incredibly prone to O/T.

A beginner wouldn't have the O/T situation I'm prone to because he isn't used to blowing lead. Nor is he as impatient to develop his upper register. Heck he might not know that high notes even exist.

I chose my new chop setting because it at least allows the capacity to blow notes well above high G. Formerly I had a cut-off pointvat that note. My new chop system is roughly similar to Stevens-Costello that and other ways. I've just tweeked the way I set my lower lip in order to get the thing working.

While during the late summer this year I became frustrated with the tendency of my chops to simply lose the ability to vibrate this was when I started incorporating pedal tones into my routine practice. A concept that while helpful is not recommended by Roy Stevens. He the late author of the process I'm working on.. However one goes with what works and playing pedals while taking care to remain vigilant at avoiding O/T seemed to reduce the downtime created by the described condition. Heck when my chops get overtrained? I can hardly play the tuning note!.

Well I've found a new answer! Playing really low tones into my trombone mouthpiece. This piece only fits abt a quarter inch into the the average trumpet shank. That and playing a full minute of double pedal B flats really loosens up a swollen, stiff embouchure. Since incorporating this technique into my daily practice I've been able to return to a fairly lengthy practiced session. And of course the more I practice while avoiding overtraining? The better I feel about the situation.

While other systems also opposed playing pedals (though I don't know why?!) I once heard that our famous friend Chris Labarbera sometimes incorporates this low brass mouthpiece playing into his sessions. To relax his chops. He a life long advocate of Reinhardt the Doctor always forbade him from playing any pedals either.

And of course I'm definitely not using this relaxation process in order to squeeze even more practice time put of a developing set of chops. Instead I'm even more cautious about AVOIDING excessively long workouts. That and Im glad to take.a day or two off. Just to make damned sure I'm not pushing too hard.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).