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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Hi everyone
Thank you very much for your replies, which I'll read in more detail and reply to when I have more time.
I just wanted to update this thread, to say that I have asked Jim New to put my order for a 24 throat and 24 backbore on hold, as I'm now uncertain that I want to change my existing C trumpet set-up, or whether this would work for D/Eb.
I have one of Jim New's S backbores (which if you didn't know, is a more open 10 backbore, specifically the one from one of Arturo's Mt. Vernon 3Cs, which differs from a standard Bach 10 backbore, by having the reamer inserting further in). Jim advised experimenting with this first, to see whether a more open backbore is a move in the right direction. I'll update this thread with how I get on.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | Hi Lou,
Hi cgaiii
Chiming in late here. I only play D/Db trumpet in baroque and natural trumpets and those mouthpieces are another matter, but my experience looking for a C trumpet mouthpiece might be illustrative.
I think the key is the relation to the horn you are used to playing. I had heard the idea that C trumpet needs a more open mouthpiece too. So when I got my C trumpet I got one of those Bach Symphonic mouthpieces. I matched most of my regular mouthpiece at the time (Bach 1.5 C with 26 throat), the difference being the more open backbore. My C is a Kanstul 1510, large bore, but plays tighter (perhaps naturally) than my standard Bb. The Symphonic mouthpiece was no good for me. I actually found tightening up the mouthpiece felt better and played easier. I now play the horn with a regular 1.5C or the 1.5C with the 26 throat. It was an odd discovery, but it worked. I cannot tell you why. I had thought the more open mouthpiece would help the horn feel more open, but I did not like the sound.
Thanks very much for sharing. Very interesting and informative, thanks. My C trumpet is also a large bore and Kanstul made, but it is a F Besson Classic. I bought it new old stock a couple of years back. I haven't yet experimented with mouthpieces on it, and have always used the same as I use on Bb. With the same mouthpiece, I also find that it plays tighter than my Bb.
So you might play around with slight variations on what you normally use, a little more open to a little tighter, depending on how the horn feels in comparison with your most comfortable horn or horns. You might be surprised that conventional wisdom does not necessarily apply.
Good advice, thanks, and mirrors that which Jim New has given me. I'm going to start by comparing my standard 10 backbore to Jim New's S backbore (which I own already, converted for Jim New's gap modulator), which is a larger 10. This should tell me whether or not a more open backbore would be a move in the right direction.
I'll be interested to hear how you get along with the orchestra and the D trumpet. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Thanks very much. I really like the orchestra. Hopefully the D trumpet will be a lot of fun.
I would not ask you why; I would ask why not have some fun with a new horn, or three new horns.
Thank you very much. Very kind of you.
I hope we get a report down the road of the one you liked best and how the mouthpieces worked out!
Will do. I've already decided that I like the 6610 better as an Eb than a D, and that for a D trumpet, I much prefer the 651/751 to the 6610 with the D slides. Maybe this is because they were designed to be solely D trumpets, but I'm finding that the 651/751 have a bigger more open sound. Although they have the same 11.30mm bore size as the 6610, to me, they feel and sound like bigger D trumpets.
I like the 651 and 751 equally, and am going to keep the 651 for me, and lend the 751 to my colleague.
Thanks very much again.
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:22 am Post subject: |
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I'll reply to everyone else later.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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lipshurt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | Hi Lou
No need to worry about sounding argumentative, you have your reasons and that's cool. Just don't forget that all those pro orchestral trumpet players do what they for a reason: it makes it easier to play. Very few select instruments to make things harder... good luck with these two toys, I hope you enjoy them!
cheers
Andy |
Hi Andy
Thanks very much. I do understand about making things harder. As an example, I know that you don't like them, but my spare cornet is a mid 1960s Boosey and Hawkes low pitch Imperial. I haven't played it for years, but once I had the idea of taking it to my brass band. I found that it was absolutely buried in a section of modern larger bored broader sounding cornets, and I've never had to work so hard. I however like it for vintage cornet solos. As another example, my brass band plays every year for all three days of a national flower show, Fri, Sat and Sun. My American Songbook band rehearsal is on a Friday evening, and one year I had the idea of playing my brass band cornet set-up rather than trumpet, thinking that sticking to the same set-up for the whole weekend would be a good idea. No, after just one tune I switched to trumpet, as I found that I was working too hard to get an appropriate sound.
I however really do think that the 651/751 D trumpets will work. Although the same bore size as the 6610, as being designed to be only D trumpets, not only do they play better in D than the 6610, but have a bigger more open sound, the 651 with the gold brass bell in particular sounding reasonably big. I also play in a reduced size symphony orchestra in a small hall, so will have no issues with the sound being too small to sufficiently project.
The only issue could be the sound being a little narrow and bright to be entirely appropriate, but I honestly do not think that anyone will notice in an amateur symphony orchestra, especially with both players on equivalent D trumpets, and my idea is to use them for baroque repertoire written for a trumpet in D. I'm playing Swedish Rhapsody-Alfven at the end of the month, but am planning to play it on C trumpet even though I have a part for trumpet in D, as I don't think it will sound right on D. Bb may be even better, but I'm playing predominantly C trumpet for the other repertoire, and it is in a nicer key for C trumpet.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | Just chiming in to say that I thought it was an interesting question and would be interested in direct answers. I've often read on here to go with a more open mouthpiece for C (and mine seems to like a larger mouthpiece) but then at one point I tried a piccolo and was surprised that mouthpieces often go smaller and shallower because of the need for very efficient use of air. It seemed funny to me that one with one slightly smaller instrument (the C) you'd go with more open/bigger pieces, but with the much smaller piccolo, you do the opposite. With D/Eb sitting in between I have no idea what the general trend is.
I play in churches and would be interested in an Eb down the road, in part because I presume it would be easier than a piccolo. I'm going to a music show this weekend and hoping they'll have some there. What's the difference in blow on a "big" D vs. a "little" D trumpet? It sounds like most of you play the same mouthpiece you use on your Bb/C? Is D/Eb at all a good "gateway" instrument if one wanted to move towards playing piccolo? |
Hi HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Thanks very much. I'd also very much be interested in people's answers to the questions which you ask.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| GordonH wrote: | Here is my thought on this:
I have not used a D trumpet this century.
Hi GordonH
Interesting, thanks.
I bought the D slides and bell for my 4 valve Schilke and never used them.
I think I am just lazy and do it all on Bb, or piccolo in A for the high bits.
Again interesting. Do you use a C trumpet at all? C trumpets don't seem very common in the UK, but we use our Cs quite a bit, mainly because my section colleague really likes C, because he does a lot of playing for his church, for which he always plays C. I'm not sure about convention, but we played Tchaikovsky's Little Russian last season, which was scored for a trumpet in C, and this year we are going to play Beethoven's 5th, also scored for a trumpet in C. I personally can't see much sense playing either on Bb.
However, I use the Eb trumpet quite a lot. I have a msller one now, the same as the Eastman one. I find it works better with the bigger throat BUT a few years ago I used a friends yamaha and found the opposite. You may have to experiment.
What please do you use your Eb for? I plan to experiment, thanks.
Bach make orchestral mouthpieces that have the 24/24 set up as a stock item, if you can find someone with them in stock.
Thank you very much, but it now looks like this may be the wrong way to go.
Thanks again
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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| Back to top |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | Don’t use bigger throat for D/Eb
“generally speaking” as always |
Hi lipshurt
Thanks very much. Obviously you are talking from mouthpiece making experience in addition to playing experience. If you don't mind me asking, would you mind sharing why a bigger throat doesn't work well for D/Eb. Poor intonation for example?
What please is your experience regarding backbores for D/Eb. Bigger, smaller or same as on Bb?
Many thanks
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: |
Thank you very much. Very kind of you.
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As always, my pleasure. You are always such a helpful and conscientious poster and have helped me a number of times. And you have started an thread here that I am following with interest.
Looking forward to hearing how it all works out. Glad you are sorting the horns out already. I wonder how mouthpieces will change the way the horns feel.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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GordonH
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:39 am Post subject: |
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[quote="gus"] | GordonH wrote: | Here is my thought on this:
However, I use the Eb trumpet quite a lot. I have a msller one now, the same as the Eastman one. I find it works better with the bigger throat BUT a few years ago I used a friends yamaha and found the opposite. You may have to experiment.
I have a Yamaha Rod Franks Mouthpiece. This mouthpiece was born as a Schilke designed for Eb trumpet that Rod Franks' father increased the bore and backbore to a 23 and a bigger bore. Later Yamaha copied it
It works very well with the EB.
By the way, GOrdon which is the brand of Eb you use ? Moller? |
Its an early JP (John Packer). When they wanted to offer an Eb/D they first went to the company in Taiwan that makes the Andreas Eastman instruments. Mine is identical apart from the name on the bell. It has the same elaborate bell engraving. The same instrument is also sold under the Arnolds and Sons name in Europe. Its based on an earlier yamaha design.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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