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Auraix
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject: Headache Reply with quote

So, I'm about to move from lesson 1 to lesson 2 in a few days for the two weeks a lesson thing.

One thing that has been happening recently is that when I go above a High C, once I stop a get a massive headache. I often have to stop after it and take a slightly longer break than usual because of it.

What should I do about it? I'm pretty sure I don't jam my mouthpiece into my face, as there isn't a ring on my lips or pain in the area. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or how to fix it.

If anyone has tips for this, I would greatly appreciate it!
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Steve Sperry
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like to me, that you are straining too much. Too much back pressure.
When doing the range studies of SA, focus should be on the blowing muscles
(Think bellows). And your embouchure moving towards the center of the mp.

I'm sure John Mohan, or Jeff Purtle will chime in, I have gotten alot of good advice from reading their respective responses about Claude's teachings.

All the best
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure you DO NOT do the long hold on Part II of SA. Ever! That might be the cause. Also, Claude never started anyone on Lesson 1 in SA because it’s too much like long tones, which he never assigned like others do. You likely need tongue level and some other things in your practice for a complete routine. You can read some free articles on my site and my ebook where I break things down to even more details. Contact me direct too if you wish. I can talk briefly even if you don’t want to do lessons.

You shouldn’t get a headache only around a high c unless you’re doing something wrong or you have some other issue we can talk about.

Sometimes people get a slight dizzy feeling or even blackout when blowing really hard from the compression of the chest and restricting and then releasing of the blood flow to the brain. It’s nothing to be afraid of but it usually only happens when playing close to a double high c or holding a high note too long. You never want to get below half with your air when approaching a high note because it costs you wind power.

Anyone can notice this as follows: Without the trumpet take a full breath and lblow as powerful as you can without letting your chest drop. Now empty about half you air and try to blow as hard as you can. Anyone can fee that you can’t generate as much power. That’s why we never should get too low when approaching high notes. If we loose the wind power we try to make up for it with tightening the lips or jamming it into our face. Correct use of wind power will take care of all those issues though.

I suspect you need to be working on playing some tongue level studies with the correct coordination of tongue level and wind power before you even try doing the Systematic Approach range studies. SA was never ever intended to be played by itself. You have to understand that Claude at first hand wrote those exercises to go along with all the other material he would assign students. A complete routine is the point in making.

Call me if you wish.
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Last edited by Jeff_Purtle on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read some of your older posts in various forums and it appears these issues are not just from doing SA. I really suspect you need to have other things in your routine and be walked through how to get the correct feel with these things.

Often people think they are playing more relaxed than they really are. They don’t know how easy it can be and the value of some simple things like kicking the air on ascending notes or taking it off your mouth for 5-10 seconds between exercises. It’s about the correct feel more than just playing a bunch of notes.

On a side note: This is also where the Bill Adam and Arnold Jacobs crowd misses a big point in thinking the sound is the only thing to focus on. Correct easy playing will produce a better sound. However, if you focus on the sound it will not magically make the mechanics work. That’s mystical nonsense.

I just had a similar conversation with one of my students that used to be an NFL place kicker and coaches college students. Someone can visualize all they want but if the mechanics and technique are wrong they will never get the results they hope for.

This Claude Gordon approach makes logical sense and works. But, it is an art form and not something you just do like a how to book. People in other fields realize this but trumpet players are a little too over confident in their ability to self teach.

Ask yourself, why do athletes have a coach? Why do professional ballet dancers take classes and have coaches and choreographers? Why do people have trainers at the gym no matter their level?

It really helps to get an outside opinion and set of eyes on oneself. We rarely spot our own issues because we are too familiar with ourselves.

As a personal example, I remember when Claude had me put a wrist watch on my stand and count 10 seconds between each exercise. I thought it was kind of annoying and wasting my time. I didn’t “feel” tired. I did this like he said and a week later he asked how my playing felt. I said everything felt so much easier. He then told me I wasn’t resting correctly before. After that I realized what playing easier felt like. Our feelings are subjective.

Jeff
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted by dfcoleman

Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Jeff wrote, only play a short hold on the Part 2 Exercises in Systematic Approach.

Back when I was of High School age, I used to get the same type of massive headache right after sustaining a high note. With time and proper development the problem went away for me.

In the meantime, here is something I figured out and did, and you can also do to instantly stop that headache from happening and also mitigate the chances of passing out right after playing a sustained high note or high passage:

First off, I'll explain what is likely happening. When one plays a high note, one is blowing hard enough to create a level of thoracic air pressure that is higher than normal venous, or perhaps even normal arterial blood pressure (personally I can create 185 mmHG of blowing pressure - significantly higher than my normal blood pressure of 120 over 75 mmHg). This is what causes trumpet players to turn red in the face when playing loud and/or high notes.

When you end the high note, all of a sudden that built-up blood pressure in your head rapidly dissipates and that is what causes the headache and possible graying or even blacking out (fainting).

Here's what will help prevent this: As soon as you finish the note, bend your head all the way back and look up at the ceiling for a moment. This will constrict the veins leaving your head and slow the flow of the blood out of your head down a bit and prevent the headache from occurring. This works very well for me (or rather, did in the past when I had the problem you are currently having).

Hope this proves helpful!

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a time (long ago) when I was experiencing this. It's a skull splitting headache for several seconds often accompanied by seeing stars, being dizzy, etc. Then the headache goes away as fast as it came on.

This is not an issue of how much air you take in. It has to do with blood flow. I don't know the mechanics but it is definitely related to blood flow.

There came a time (also long ago) when I stopped having this problem. I don't know why, it just stopped happening. Maybe I built up a tolerance. Maybe something changed about how I was playing. Beats me, but I was glad the problem stopped happening, the headaches were very painful.

I wish I could provide more information other than telling you that many players experience this. It's a serious problem. You are definitely not alone.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To "Auraix" the OP of this thread:

I wrote what is likely causing your problem and the fix for it in my first post here but I think it's kind of lost now (and it's pretty wordy).

Short version:

The next time you are practicing, play something in the range that brings on the headache, but the moment you stop playing extend your neck (meaning bend your head all the way back and look up at the ceiling). Stay that way for about 5 seconds and then slowly look back down. Then do us a favor and report the results here in this topic thread.

Thanks,

John Mohan
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Auraix
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lifting my head works really well, I don't feel like I'm going to pass out anymore, thanks! I can still feel a little pressure, but it isn't as bad as it was before.

I'll make to sure to do this as I continue.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Multiple usernames not permitted on TH.

And that was only the half of it.

Thread edited and restored.

Moderators
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our bodies adapt over time too. As you improve it takes less effort. Wind Power is not about blowing as hard as you possibly can. Remember, it’s the coordination of all seven items.

Playing the trumpet is very physical but the kind of athleticism is more like being a ballerina than a power weight lifter. It takes strength but more coordination and precise focus.

My daughter is 13 and a pretty accomplished ballerina. A couple years ago she challenged me to some little contests and one was calf raises. At the gym I could do maybe 65 reps with 100 pounds. I thought it would be easy to beat her. We did it without any weight and I could barely force out 100 before my calves were on fire. She smiled and kept going to over 550 reps! She was maybe 10 at the time. Ballet dancers do plié all the time and her little calves are super strong. It is a different kind of strength and muscle endurance.

Jeff
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderators wrote:
Multiple usernames not permitted on TH.

And that was only the half of it.

Thread edited and restored.

Moderators


Thank you very much.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
Our bodies adapt over time too. As you improve it takes less effort. Wind Power is not about blowing as hard as you possibly can. Remember, it’s the coordination of all seven items.

Playing the trumpet is very physical but the kind of athleticism is more like being a ballerina than a power weight lifter. It takes strength but more coordination and precise focus.

My daughter is 13 and a pretty accomplished ballerina. A couple years ago she challenged me to some little contests and one was calf raises. At the gym I could do maybe 65 reps with 100 pounds. I thought it would be easy to beat her. We did it without any weight and I could barely force out 100 before my calves were on fire. She smiled and kept going to over 550 reps! She was maybe 10 at the time. Ballet dancers do plié all the time and her little calves are super strong. It is a different kind of strength and muscle endurance.

Jeff


Love this story!!!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Auraix wrote:
Lifting my head works really well, I don't feel like I'm going to pass out anymore, thanks! I can still feel a little pressure, but it isn't as bad as it was before.

I'll make to sure to do this as I continue.


Excellent! Thank you for taking the time to post that it worked. Glad I could be of help.

Cheers,

John
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Moderators wrote:
Multiple usernames not permitted on TH.

And that was only the half of it.

Thread edited and restored.

Moderators


Thank you very much.


What happened and where’s the Kurt Heisig post? I got a notice that there was a reply and now it’s gone.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eric,

I didn't see Kurt's post, but if his post was a reply to one of the antagonist's posts, the Moderators would have deleted it as they did one or more of my posts that were replies to that individual. If you didn't see it before, someone placed a long post here and then follow-up posts that, while having the best of intentions, disparaged some of Claude's core ideas regarding breathing and promoted another approach to it all (an approach that has its own dedicated forum here on the TH).

Best wishes,

John
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m glad the moderator deleted it. I was going to reply but hoped someone else would so I didn’t have to get in the middle of things. I had just posted my comment about why to fill up and then that post was trying to justify only taking as much air as needed. That is definitely NOT what Claude would have said and there are very good reasons why.

There are some very good trumpet players out in the world that are not necessarily great teachers and they just try to say what they experience or feel without much experience teaching people.

I recently went to ITG and say through several sessions about various ideas about practicing. I am more convinced that Claude’s ideas are so clear and complete. One session I attended was filled with a bunch of esoteric mystique and people at it up. I was sitting there quietly thinking “Am I the only one that can see this doesn’t make sense?”

I had a long conversation with Harry Kim about this and it’s like some people approach things like Mind Over Matter. That is dumb and does not work for many people unless their mechanics are already working correctly.

It reminds me of The Think System in The Music Man musical and movie. People laughed at that but we have those same ideas spread and accepted in the Other forums here.

I hope the CG forum here can always keep pointing people to think when they practice and use quality established method books in a systematic way. That’s how all of us can really gain wisdom from the greats of the past.

Jeff
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
I recently went to ITG and say through several sessions about various ideas about practicing. I am more convinced that Claude’s ideas are so clear and complete. One session I attended was filled with a bunch of esoteric mystique and people at it up. I was sitting there quietly thinking “Am I the only one that can see this doesn’t make sense?”

I had a long conversation with Harry Kim about this and it’s like some people approach things like Mind Over Matter. That is dumb and does not work for many people unless their mechanics are already working correctly.

It reminds me of The Think System in The Music Man musical and movie. People laughed at that but we have those same ideas spread and accepted in the Other forums here.


Regarding your comment about The Think System, rarely has something been so funny and so true at the same time!!!



Jeff_Purtle wrote:
I hope the CG forum here can always keep pointing people to think when they practice


Now I am confused. Are you now advocating The Think System?

(Just kidding!)

One more thing (to everybody else):

I have read and studied Jeff's book Hit It Hard and Wish It Well. I will post a full review in a new topic thread soon. In the meantime:

Buy the e-book. It's worth FAR more than the price. It's that good.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great jazz improvisation is largely, if not mostly, a product of some version of "The Think System." You think it and you play it. In great jazz improvisation the transition is seamless.
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EricV
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally agree with Johns comments about Jeffs book Hit it Hard and Wish it Well
it is an amazing resource of detail and guidance on how to develop your own practice routine.

A few lessons before starting to develop a practice routine of your own from any of the CG guys is vital in my opinion to ensure you grasp the basic concepts

Spend a few bucks, it will be the best money you ever spend.

Cheers
EricV
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