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Throat/Backbore suggestion for D/Eb trumpet


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:19 am    Post subject: Throat/Backbore suggestion for D/Eb trumpet Reply with quote

Hi

I've bought myself a used D/Eb trumpet, a Yamaha 6610S. Seems pretty ok. Plays well with pretty reasonable intonation in both keys.

I haven't done much with it yet, but plan to use the Eb slides for the Haydn and Hummel, and D for baroque.

Anyway, my question please is related to mouthpieces. As with C trumpet, is the general conscensus to open both the throat and backbore for D/Eb, 24 throat/24 backbore for example?

Many thanks

Best wishes

Lou
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou, you can try that. If you play a Bach mpc already you can order your size from JK ( Josef Klier) which comes with a large back bore already, and a 3.8 mm hole, which is like a 25. They call this their USA line. That way you don't have to order an expensive mpc from Bach. These are around 40 euros. Whatever you do, don't bore out your daily player, since you might not like it. Get another one, and bore that one out if that's what you decide to do.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach 117 backbore comes standard on their 'E' cup mouthpieces, and works well on soprano (Eb) and piccolo trumpets. You could start there or with backbores of that type, such as Matt Frost's #11.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you feel like taking a punt, can I recommend you get a Monette E6? Or, if Jim New can make copies, make one of these. They are a close enough rim you shouldn’t notice and in my opinion will play noticeably better than a full length mouthpiece.

Many people say Monette and his mouthpieces are all voodoo. If this is the case, then call me the witch doctor! They certainly work for me.

Cheers

Andy
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Guys

Sorry I'm in a hurry today, so haven't time to reply to you all individually, but thanks very much. I've made a decision on this rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I'm going to be using C trumpet predominantly in my upcoming symphony orchestra season, and I've been toying for some time with the idea of trying a 24 throat/ Bach 24 style backbore on C, and have asked Jim New to please make me a copy of my usual mouthpiece top (copy of the cup end of my 2005 Bach 3C trumpet mouthpiece) but with a 24 throat, and a sleeved 24 style backbore.

I plan to also try this on D/Eb.

Going off slightly on a tangent, for which I apologise, I've additionally bought another one, possibly two D trumpets.

I initially asked for the 6610S to be sent to me to try on approval along with a used 651 D trumpet, which I could lend to my section colleague, so we could both play D trumpets.

I'm guessing that the 651 dates from the mid 1980s. I'm not sure whether the 6610S was predominantly designed as an Eb trumpet, and is basically an Eb with additional D slides. Hopefully someone on here will know. Whatever, the 6610S seems to play better for me in Eb than D, and I prefer the 651 as a D trumpet.

I've therefore decided to keep the 6610S as an Eb trumpet and the 651 as a D. The same retailer also had a 751 D trumpet. I've asked them to please send me this to also try. As long as it plays ok and is in acceptable condition, I'm planning on keeping both the 651 and 751, playing one myself and lending the other to my colleague.

Going back to the 651, this is my first experience with D and Eb trumpets, so I have nothing to compare it too, but this seems a pretty good D to me, a little more open feeling and sounding than the 6610S, with a nice sound and pretty good intonation. Intonation-wise, these trumpets seem less problematic than my C, which has the usual C trumpet problematic notes.

Thanks very much again.

Best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
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Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Cornets:
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those old Yamaha D tpts were designed differently than the Eb/D that they made during the same period. They were larger bore, and they were specifically made to play in D, so the whole configuration of the horn is different. In fact if you take off the D slides of your Yamaha 651, you will see that it won't fit on the the Eb . Yes the D only trumpet plays better in D than the Eb/D, so it's nice to have two horns. I only own the 651 since I have no use for an Eb. Yes the 6610 is built in Eb, with D slides.

The 651 is from the 70s and it has Yamalloy valves, so check it out carefully as the valves are known to be finicky.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Irving

Thanks very much. Much appreciated.

Thanks very much for the heads up regarding the valves. They luckily seem fine.

What please is your opinion of your 651? I presume that you must like it, since you continue to play it.

Like I say, this is my first experience with D/Eb trumpets, but this 651 seems pretty decent to me. Good enough for what I want. Ditto for the 6610S as an Eb trumpet.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
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Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't hesitate to buy either the 651 or the 751. It's a very good D tpt. You can use it on baroque works or on passages in the repertoire that lies better on a D tpt. It's not too big, and not too small. Plus they don't make them anymore. A good plain D trumpet isn't easy to come by.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
I wouldn't hesitate to buy either the 651 or the 751. It's a very good D tpt. You can use it on baroque works or on passages in the repertoire that lies better on a D tpt. It's not too big, and not too small. Plus they don't make them anymore. A good plain D trumpet isn't easy to come by.


Hi Irving

Thanks very much.

I'm keeping the 651 and will probably keep the 751 when it comes to try on approval on Wednesday.

Obviously I don't need two, but I plan to lend the other to my section colleague, as it doesn't make sense only me playing a D trumpet. He was kind enough to lend me his spare C for months at a time until I got mine, so I'm more than happy to return the favour.

Take care

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only question remains is ‘why?’. What repertoire are you playing which needs a D rather than a larger C (or Bb) trumpet? Anything which is a part in D is normally written for anything BUT. a little D trumpet such as these, excepting baroque music, and then a piccolo is the go to horn...

Orchestral D trumpets are usually bigger instruments, like a cut down C trumpet...

Cheers

Andy
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Throat/backbore Reply with quote

Hello all,
I think that it takes a lot of experimentation with mp's when you get to the smaller horns. Sound and matching to the section should take precedence. I have owned two 6610's and a Bach EL. The horn I should have bought was a Schilke E3L. That is the horn that is going to get used in an orchestra. The 6610 would be the most appropriate for the lower parts of the Messiah or Magnificat. So I agree with Andy for much of the literature. Mind you, I so own a Schilke Eb soprano. That gets me by on the solos in Eb. For D parts, my C or pic seems to suffice. Though, I just did have valves replated and slide work done on an old modified Buescher. I became an owner of a Renold Schilke creation out of the early 40's. I knew it was an attempt on a D1 design and thought it could be a viable D trumpet if I ever needed one. It turned out quite viable. I remember a time were used E3L's could be had for $1600...
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
The only question remains is ‘why?’. What repertoire are you playing which needs a D rather than a larger C (or Bb) trumpet? Anything which is a part in D is normally written for anything BUT. a little D trumpet such as these, excepting baroque music, and then a piccolo is the go to horn...

Orchestral D trumpets are usually bigger instruments, like a cut down C trumpet...

Cheers

Andy


Hi Andy

Thanks very much. Without meaning any offence at all, not only do I already know what you say above, but I was waiting for you to ask this, as we have had a similar discussion before. As I said last time, orchestral trumpet playing is just one type of playing I do. I play in two orchestras, one a community light orchestra, which plays lighter classics, music from the shows and marches. I use mainly Bb trumpet, and sometimes cornet for some marches and overtures.

The other orchestra is a symphony orchestra, and we play for six months of the year, and do two concerts a year. We work on one symphony each season, which we perform at Christmas (it will be Beethoven's 5th this year, last year was Tchaikovsky's Little Russian), and a few overtures and shorter works, which we perform in our Easter concert along with usually one movement of the symphony.

I'm primarily a brass bander, and also do a bit of big band and lighter jazz playing.

Also being a mum of three, one with learning difficulties and having a busy life, I'm not interested in working on my transposing skills. I can do Bb to C and vice versa whilst playing, and I can work out the other transpositions when need be, but and this is the crux of the situation, I have neither the time or the inclination to work at transposing when playing. Sorry, but this is simply the case.

I'm on the committee for the symphony orchestra, I have access to the parts a few months in advance if need be, and I usually transpose them for either Bb or C trumpet, depending on what else we are playing, which puts it in a better key etc.

We do some baroque playing, mainly Bach and Handel. As an example, whatever is generally used, I reckon that Handel's water music would sound nice on these smaller D trumpets.

If the part is written for a trumpet in D, I think it will sound ok, and me and my section colleague are playing equivalent D trumpets, I don't see the harm. I personally don't care whether it is normally played on Bb or C trumpet, or a larger D, and I truly don't think anyone else in the orchestra will even notice or care.

If this sounds argumentative, I'm very sorry, but in my opinion, no trumpet I choose today will replicate the trumpets the music was originally written for, and all I will be going against is modern convention.

As I understand it, American orchestras tend to use primarily C trumpet, whereas we tend to use more Bb over here. Who's right, who's wrong?

I plan to use the Eb side of the 6610S for the Haydn and Hummel, which I imagine will be a fine use for it.

Anyway, sorry that is how I see it, and anyway the D trumpets are more of a new toy, than any great necessity.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Throat/backbore Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
I think that it takes a lot of experimentation with mp's when you get to the smaller horns. Sound and matching to the section should take precedence. I have owned two 6610's and a Bach EL. The horn I should have bought was a Schilke E3L. That is the horn that is going to get used in an orchestra. The 6610 would be the most appropriate for the lower parts of the Messiah or Magnificat. So I agree with Andy for much of the literature. Mind you, I so own a Schilke Eb soprano. That gets me by on the solos in Eb. For D parts, my C or pic seems to suffice. Though, I just did have valves replated and slide work done on an old modified Buescher. I became an owner of a Renold Schilke creation out of the early 40's. I knew it was an attempt on a D1 design and thought it could be a viable D trumpet if I ever needed one. It turned out quite viable. I remember a time were used E3L's could be had for $1600...


Hi Christian

Thanks very much.

Like I've said on my post above to Andy, in my case, playing as part of a two person section in an amateur symphony orchestra, I don't think I have to worry about what is generally used, and I've got enough common sense to not use a small D trumpet for something which is clearly going to sound far more appropriate on Bb or C. We've done a few things lately that I think these D's will work well for. Boyce and Handel come to mind.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,
Chiming in late here. I only play D/Db trumpet in baroque and natural trumpets and those mouthpieces are another matter, but my experience looking for a C trumpet mouthpiece might be illustrative.
I think the key is the relation to the horn you are used to playing. I had heard the idea that C trumpet needs a more open mouthpiece too. So when I got my C trumpet I got one of those Bach Symphonic mouthpieces. I matched most of my regular mouthpiece at the time (Bach 1.5 C with 26 throat), the difference being the more open backbore. My C is a Kanstul 1510, large bore, but plays tighter (perhaps naturally) than my standard Bb. The Symphonic mouthpiece was no good for me. I actually found tightening up the mouthpiece felt better and played easier. I now play the horn with a regular 1.5C or the 1.5C with the 26 throat. It was an odd discovery, but it worked. I cannot tell you why. I had thought the more open mouthpiece would help the horn feel more open, but I did not like the sound.
So you might play around with slight variations on what you normally use, a little more open to a little tighter, depending on how the horn feels in comparison with your most comfortable horn or horns. You might be surprised that conventional wisdom does not necessarily apply.
I'll be interested to hear how you get along with the orchestra and the D trumpet. Sounds like a lot of fun. I would not ask you why; I would ask why not have some fun with a new horn, or three new horns. I hope we get a report down the road of the one you liked best and how the mouthpieces worked out!
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou

No need to worry about sounding argumentative, you have your reasons and that's cool. Just don't forget that all those pro orchestral trumpet players do what they for a reason: it makes it easier to play. Very few select instruments to make things harder... good luck with these two toys, I hope you enjoy them!

cheers

Andy
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just chiming in to say that I thought it was an interesting question and would be interested in direct answers. I've often read on here to go with a more open mouthpiece for C (and mine seems to like a larger mouthpiece) but then at one point I tried a piccolo and was surprised that mouthpieces often go smaller and shallower because of the need for very efficient use of air. It seemed funny to me that one with one slightly smaller instrument (the C) you'd go with more open/bigger pieces, but with the much smaller piccolo, you do the opposite. With D/Eb sitting in between I have no idea what the general trend is.

I play in churches and would be interested in an Eb down the road, in part because I presume it would be easier than a piccolo. I'm going to a music show this weekend and hoping they'll have some there. What's the difference in blow on a "big" D vs. a "little" D trumpet? It sounds like most of you play the same mouthpiece you use on your Bb/C? Is D/Eb at all a good "gateway" instrument if one wanted to move towards playing piccolo?
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the same rim and cup from corno da caccia to C piccolo. The backbore and length of mpc varies, but I am playing from the cool aid cup of Monette. So maybe my experience doesn't count, but it does allow me to play far far better than going down the traditional 7D/11Ax piccolo and more open C mpc route.

cheers

Andy
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my thought on this:

I have not used a D trumpet this century.
I bought the D slides and bell for my 4 valve Schilke and never used them.
I think I am just lazy and do it all on Bb, or piccolo in A for the high bits.

However, I use the Eb trumpet quite a lot. I have a msller one now, the same as the Eastman one. I find it works better with the bigger throat BUT a few years ago I used a friends yamaha and found the opposite. You may have to experiment.

Bach make orchestral mouthpieces that have the 24/24 set up as a stock item, if you can find someone with them in stock.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

Thanks very much.

I havent forgotten about this thread, and will reply when I have a moment.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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gus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="GordonH"]Here is my thought on this:


However, I use the Eb trumpet quite a lot. I have a msller one now, the same as the Eastman one. I find it works better with the bigger throat BUT a few years ago I used a friends yamaha and found the opposite. You may have to experiment.


I have a Yamaha Rod Franks Mouthpiece. This mouthpiece was born as a Schilke designed for Eb trumpet that Rod Franks' father increased the bore and backbore to a 23 and a bigger bore. Later Yamaha copied it


It works very well with the EB.


By the way, GOrdon which is the brand of Eb you use ? Moller?
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