MLB Horns Don’t Play In Tune

[INTJ]

That title should catch someone’s eye. Let me explain what I want to discuss.

18 years ago I came back to trumpet after 20+ years. My gap in playing was so long that I was really starting new. I started out with a Getzen 700S, which is a typical tight 37/25 type horn. I was flat below the staff and sharp above with any MP I used, even after the valve alignment.

I switched to several other horns in the first 10 years of my comeback to include: a Yamaha 8335, a Harrelson Bravura, and three different Carol Brass horns. All were Medium Large Bore horns as everyone knows Large Bore horns are harder to play and a bad choice. I used many different types of mouthpieces. I tested many other horns during this time. All these MLB horns played the same for me: flat below the staff and sharp above. In that first 10 years I developed enough to perform G above High Cs in concerts.

One day I happened to play a LB Bach 72/43, and it was like a breath of fresh air! I was NOT sharp above the staff. No longer did I have to strain to play in tune. So I bought a Wild Thing and started playing in tune. Within a few more years I had developed enough to perform DHCs in concerts (short concerts). I now play an Inspiration (same bore and bell taper) and I play it in tune as well.

I periodically try a MLB horn, and it’s almost always the same: flat below the staff and sharp above. The only one that came close was Flip’s Legend. My intonation wasn’t terrible on that.

I can’t get my head around a .003” to .010” difference in bore size being that big of a factor. Perhaps the typical bell profile of a LB horn is more open and maybe that’s the factor. Then again, my MLB Bravura had a 72 type bell and I played it sharp. I played the LB Bach 72 in tune. There was only .002” or bore size difference.

Maybe it’s the leadpipe. Then again, I have played the Wild Thing taper bell with five different leadpipes and all of the played in tune, though the resistance as definitely different. I have even played that bell in lightweight brass, std weight brass, and copper; and I play in tune.

I have asked some experts and they tell me it’s just how I play and not to worry about it. Maybe that is the answer, but I can’t help thinking that it has to do with how I am hearing and thinking about sound and I wonder if my endurance would improve if I could figure out how to play a MLB horn in tune. I currently play lead for two hour gigs (10 min break in between) of Basie type stuff and I am am ok for about 90 minutes as long as I play backed off, wedge breathe and keep tension out of chest, etc.

Like with MLB horns, I play my picc in tune for about and octave and a half, but that seems to work for the picc. I struggle a bit more on my flugel. They obviously have smaller bores.

I recently bought a Carol Brass pocket trumpet since I am having to travel a bit more and I need to stay in shape. I have to be REALLY careful with it. Yesterday when practicing I played it back and forth with my Inspiration, and I started to play the Inspiration out of tune. I put up the pocket trumpet and got back in tune with the Inspiration.

So is it that some of us really do need a LB horn to play in tune? Or, as I continue to work to play with less and less tension, should I eventually be able to play a MLB bore as in tune as I do a LB horn?
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[Andy Del]

This is an interesting tale - to which all I can say is your 'experts' may not actually be such. It's clear that there is something in your playing which is not balanced and only a very open instrument allows your setup to work.

To a degree, this is all fine and dandy.

To a degree...

If the lack of resistance - which both the wild things I have ever played - is the key, then maybe you are providing a form of resistance in your production setup. So it is not the bore size of the instrument that should be under the microscope, but you. Spending time (AKA lessons) with someone in person who is knowledgable about these things is going to be key to resolving this. If you have been able to develop your playing on your own as you say, then it may be only a few lessons are needed, maybe every month or so.

It would be something very worth while to explore. You can't buy a new wild thing, so eventually, you'll be out of a horn!

That's my take anyways...

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[INTJ]

Okay “to a degree is correct”. Much more okay on 35 minutes concerts that two hour concerts.

The WT with a tight 25 Leadpipe still plays in tune for me as did the tighter still Bach 72/43 LB. I hunk it’s something I am hearing.....

Also, I should have mentioned that I have been taking lessons from Pops since 2002 as well as local pros and an other pros to include: Jim Manley, Mark Zauss, Roger Ingrahm.
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[Pete]

My 8310Z (.445) Conn 38B (.437) and Bach 43*/43 ML (.459) all play in tune. The configuration of leadpipe, bore, slide fitment , bell and mouthpiece all have to work together.

BTW a Bach 37/25 to me seems to play tighter than any of the horns that I have.

Pete

[INTJ]

[Pete]

[dr_trumpet]

[INTJ]

[INTJ]

[Brassnose]

Similar experience here. Started on a Blessing Scholastic when I was eight years old and totally unconcerned about intonation. Bought the Bach in the signature below when the Blessing started feeling tight and the valves felt hard and slow. Played the Bach for almost 30 years until February 2019, when I test played the Schmidt rotary in my signature below.

Before that, I had of course known that I needed to adjust notes etc but had always thought that my Bach was a pretty good instrument. Playing the Schmidt, I realized how much I needed to correct on the Bach. So by now I basically only play the Schmidt and my bass trumpet (to be replaced with a good one as well). The Bach comes out for outdoors and rock gigs when the rotary does not project enough. It IS much harder to play in tune, but I still like it for its sound and presence.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[OldSchoolEuph]

The venturii at the base of your mouthpiece throat controls flow rate. Bore size on its own makes no difference - it is what other elements of construction are typically packaged with a given bore.

The horns you listed under the general MLB banner have more than bore in common: they all (making some assumptions about which Carols, but I can guess based on sales volumes) have architecture that traces its roots back to Bach's Holtons when he was playing. They are designed to center tightly.

Bending on that geometry requires a fair amount of energy/effort. Large bore Bachs, while still using that geometry (that many feel most comfortable with) achieve the larger inner diameter while maintaining interchangeability with the outside diameter of the tubing by using a thinner tube wall (saves on manufacturing costs). This significantly reduces mass, thus inertia, thus energy required to bend the pitch. Lighter weight construction is an attribute of the majority of larger bore horns.

If you obtain an ML bore, or even smaller bore, lightweight horn, you will probably find the issue goes away. Personally, I play heavier horns these days (much to my surprise), but ones that are designed to be less rigid in centering than the Bach feel (what I play is what Bach fans call "squirrelly').

With any horn that's flexible, as Byron said to me multiple times, if it's in tune behind the embouchure it will be in tune at the end of the bell - and I just got my hands on one of his last projects: modifying a vintage Bach ML37 to be flexible. It looks terrible because his eyesight had failed, but it's the easiest to play in tune Bach I've ever tried.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[zaferis]

An interesing comparison, but I think hard to make conclusions without knowing the specs of the mouthpieces used.

As an example with my LB trumpet(s) I find that if I use a mouthpiece that has a larger throat, the very same pitch issues that you're writing about decline. If I use my standard 3C on my LB C trumpet the upper register is a touch low and the low register tends to be high (compressed octaves) - open the throat a touch and this improves (as well as other aspects)
Then there is the issue of what you're used to - if you've been playing large bore instruments primarily, and pick up a smaller bore, understandably you won't be "blowing" in a matching manner. I suspect that after some time (days/weeks) and maybe a slight adjustment in mouthpiece setup this tendancy doesn't exist.

Bore size is only one aspect of a trumpets build; design (gap, bracing, lead pipe specs, materials, weight, etc will vary with bore size as well)
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[spitvalve]

For me the mouthpiece has always been the biggest factor with intonation. Getting the cup and backbore just right helps me play in tune on all of my different horns. Getting the gap right is another factor. For some people and/or horns it may not make as much difference, but I found with the Stomvi couplers I was able to dial it in for both of my current Bb trumpets and it makes a world of difference.

I played a Selmer Claude Gordon (.470" bore) for many years before switching to a medium-large Bach. I don't remember any major intonation differences, only changes in resistance and tone color.

There are so many variables related to tongue level, oral cavity, lung capacity, physical size and strength, age, etc... It can make you crazy. INTJ, glad you found what works for you.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[bike&ed]

INTJ, are you a larger person than average? Just curious, most large guys who play trumpet that I’ve met seem to prefer LB horns. A superb player in my area is a really large guy, and he definitely prefers a big horn, but not an excessively large mouthpiece. He nails DHCs and is also a great player overall (the 2 skill sets seem to be mutually exclusive in plenty of other cases, sadly).
You seem to have gotten great results, and your teachers are some of the best high note and overall commercial players in the world, so you probably don’t need to worry about it at all.
I’m almost exactly average sized for a US male. I loved my WTs long ago, then moved back to ML and even M bore horns with better results, but now I prefer step bore Bb’s. Thankfully we have such a great plethora of choices in trumpet designs!

[veery715]

[dershem]

[veery715]

[INTJ]

I am really enjoying this discussion! There are not too many other places where I can have such a gearhead level discussion....

So there a few of us that find playing a large bore horn easier. And like I said earlier and others here have mentioned, it can’t be the bore size so much as how the rest of the horn is configured. I still think it has to do with how I am perceiving sound.

Interestingly, the horn I have moved to from the Wild Thing is the Inspiration. The Inspiration has the same bell taper but is a standard weight bell vs lightweight bell. It has a heavy trim kit and a double thick leadpipe. I play it as in tune as my WTs and have more flexibility and a tad better endurance. My MP is a small Wedge MP with a #25 throat and a Warburton KT backbore in a Reeves Sleeve.

I am ordering a Heavy Trim kit from Harrelson to hopefully make one of my WTs more like the Inspiration. I will be selling my second Wild Thing. Even though I like the heavy Inspiration, I did not like the WT with a copper bell as it felt like it dampened things too much. Although I played copper bell WTs in tune with both tight 25 and standard 43 leadpipes.

I also agree the “what I’m used to” has become a big driver in all this, though the MP hasn’t been as big of a factory as the bell taper. Or at least it seems that way.

I am a normal sized guy. 5’ 10.5” and 185 lbs. I should be 170 or 175. I do workout some and used to workout a lot.

I also agree that I am not as efficient as I need to be. To improve that I focus on: backing off and trusting my projection, use a Wedge breath, avoid over breathing, keep the tension out of my chest, anchor/mod K tongue, I don’t think of notes as being high but just as part of the line. I am also working on hearing harmony better, improving lead style and timing, because getting those right reduces tension.

And to provide better perspective, I am good for 75-90 minutes of playing lead on Basie stuff, played dance band style (very little rest between tunes). If I were playing the third part with an occasional lead chart, two hours wouldn’t be an issue.

Finally, my comment about large bore horns being harder to play and a bad choice was indeed a bit sarcastic. For the last 18 years I have heard about how hard LB horns were to play and I accepted that so much that I dismissed how easily they payed for me for several years before reality dawned on me.

My first experience with an LB horn must have been two or three years after I came back. It was a Getzen 3052, which I think is Getzen’s version of a Back 72/43. It played easily for me but I ignored that. Around that time I also played Pops WT, and it was better than the Getzen in ease of play.

Oh well. Who knows what equipment I’ll like in the years?
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[OldSchoolEuph]

Horns like the Inspiration exemplify the remarkable advances that have been made in design in the last two decades, specifically with regard to efficiency. Just a few years ago I would have ruled out even trying the horn I now play based on its mass alone - but it responds and is as flexible as many lightweights.

It will be interesting to hear how the trim kit works out. Adding mass at the valve block typically adds inertia in particular to the partial you are in - making partial changes more secure and clean just like tighter valves do changing individual pitches. It especially reduces the ease with which you change partials accidentally. BUT, adding mass at that spot in the system can also make the horn tend to pull harder to its pitch center, which may take you back to where this thread started.

Flip is on TH a lot and obviously knows the specifics. Maybe he will chime in with some speculation as to what the effect would be, or what might be an alternative. Regardless, I hope you will share your observations when you try this, as every horn design is different and you never know for sure till you try.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Brassnose]

I would like to re-adjust my statement. In my earlier post I was not referring to bore size, I just wanted to state that some horn is easier to play for me than another one and in my case this happens to be a rotary horn.

Honestly I don't think it is the bore because if you look at piston horns I like you'll see why: I like the Yam 8310Z (M bore), the Schilke B6 (M), my bass trumpet (ML), Martin Schmidt Professional Line piston trumpet (ML). I also liked an old-ish Del Quadro horn I play tested at Dillon's (ML) but was dumb enough to not buy - now it is gone.

On the other hand I did not really like the Yam Xeno (ML), an Eclipse ML, or the Schilke B7 (M), so go figure.

My Getzen Eterna C LB is sort of in between. I like it but find it harder to play than any of the horns in the ""like" list. Of course it is a C ...
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier