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“V”-ing out mouthpiece cup



 
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:49 am    Post subject: “V”-ing out mouthpiece cup Reply with quote

I enjoy the playing characteristics of my Benge CG1 mouthpiece, but cant get along with the rim or the skeletonized mouthpiece blank. I much prefer the Yamaha 17C4 rim (which is based on a Bach 1 1/4C).

I’ve read that Claude Gordon played on a 1 1/4c mouthpiece with a larger throat and backbore that was V-eed out at the bottom. I have a few spare 17C4s sitting around and was thinking of having the same thing done to one of them. Anyone ever do this to their own mouthpiece? What was involved exactly? I wish Benge had made a CG 1 1/4 back in the day!
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn’t a 1 1/4c. Look at the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator and overlay a CG Personal on top of a New York Bach 7 and you can see what was modified. The rim came from the Del Staigers mouthpiece that Claude loved. Del Staigers was a great soloist with one of the best recordings of his version of Carnival of Venice. You can see the V was not as extreme as a flugelhorn mouthpiece or cornet or french horn mouthpiece. The backbore is a Schmidt design and the throat is a 20 drill size. It’s several things changed and they all balance themselves.

Jeff
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jeff,

I'm definitely familiar with the CG Personal mouthpiece. I was speaking more to the mouthpieces that Mr. Gordon played on earlier in his career that I read about previously (probably here on TH): A Bach 5C and a Bach 1 1/4C, both skeletonized with larger throats, Schmidt backbores, and V-shaped cups. Anyone else want to chime in? I'm sure I read it here.

But regardless of what size Mr. Gordon played on, I was more wondering if anyone had ever "V-eed" their mouthpiece cup, whatever it was, in the same way that Mr. Gordon did during his studio career.

Thanks for the Comparator tip, that gives me an idea of the changes I would need to make If I were to go ahead with this plan.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, earlier in his career Claude played on a modified 1-1/4C. Eventually he settled on a modified Bach 5C (with the cup slightly V-eed, the backbore and throat opened up and the rim skeletonized). This was copied to created the Benge Gordon Model mouthpiece, the first commercially offered CG mouthpiece. Then Benge did similar modifications to the Bach 1C, 3C, 7C and either 10C or 10-1/2C to create the Benge CG1, CG3, CG7 and CG10 respectively. Later, after he retired from studio work Claude created his final mouthpiece design, the CG Personal which as Jeff pointed out is very similar to a New York Bach 7 but with the skeletonized Del Staigers rim contour. He felt the CG Personal was the best of all of them. And for him (and Jeff), it was (and is).

To the OP: If your main complaint about your CG1 is the thin, skeletonized rim, you could have the mouthpiece cut into an underpart and matched to a Bach 1X (nice wide, comfortable rim), or Bach 1C (narrower) screw rim. For many players, including me, that skeletonized rim doesn't play nice. It's not necessarily the actual rim contour, but the skeletonization of the outer part of it that causes the trouble. I know this because back when Jim New and I designed the Kanstul Mohan 7MV and 7SV mouthpieces, which were slightly shallower versions of the CG Personal and made with the same CG Personal blank, Jim made me one 7MV with a Bach style blank. It felt much better to me and the problems I've had with clean articulations on the mouthpieces with the CG blank's skeletonized rim largely disappeared.

For what it's worth, I do most of my playing now on a Purviance 5*3 which is basically a slightly deeper version of a "real good" Bach 3C with a bigger throat and backbore than a standard Bach 3C. And when I want to sound darker, I use a Reeves 43B with a larger #22 Throat and a larger Reeves #3 Backbore. Its rim is nearly identical to the Purviance rim (the Purviance 5*3 rim was the basis for the Reeves 43 rim) and its cup, backbore and throat are all very close in size and shape to a CG Personal. But it has a rim that I get along with much better. When I want to hurt peoples' ears I resort to a Reeves 43C, or, if I am feeling extremely destructive, a 43M.

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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:

To the OP: If your main complaint about your CG1 is the thin, skeletonized rim, you could have the mouthpiece cut into an underpart and matched to a Bach 1X (nice wide, comfortable rim), or Bach 1C (narrower, less comfortable) screw rim.


Hi John,

Not sure if my main complaint is the actual contour of the rim or the fact that it feels slightly too big. Maybe I would like the rim better if the mouthpiece was a CG 1 1/4 or a CG 1 1/2 instead of a CG 1. Still, like you said, the most prudent thing to do is to turn my mouthpiece into an underpart, or have a new one ordered. A quick PSA: I sent my CG1 mouthpiece off to Matt Frost at Frost Custom Brass about 6 months ago to be duplicated, so now it can be ordered by any customer and can be matched to any rim that is also in his duplications catalog as well.

I was just hoping I could use the mouthpieces I had laying around around not doing anything instead of shelling out for a new one! Haha
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet a good mouthpiece maker could render a slightly smaller version of that CG1 for you.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of straying off topic, I found the quote referring to Claude having played a 1/14C at one time. It originally came from Paul Cacia's website about fifteen years ago (I don't think it's still there but I found where Roddy posted it on the TH 17 years ago).

As written by Roddy, quoting from Paul Cacia's original website:

Quote:
“On one specific night Claude was actually trying to find out what some of the current younger players thought of him. This was the mid 1970’s and needless to say high note players were in like Flynn. After relentless persistence I gave in and mentioned that some players said he couldn’t perform some of the routines in his “Systematic Approach”. Bare[sic] in mind Claude had retired as a player a decade before this and seldom played his horn (when I first began with Claude he played a great deal in the lessons with me). That night he went over to the case, popped the latches loudly, you could hear them flutter, he grabbed his horn, made a fist and pounded down on the top of all three valves to free them up as they were slightly frozen. He grabbed his mouthpiece and placed it in the horn. (Claude played a lacquer C.G. model with a Bach 1-1/4 C skeletonized mouthpiece with a #19 drill, a Morse taper and a full Schmidt backbore.) Taking a huge breath he played a major triad from tuning C down to pedal C (as big as a house) he started on low C and played a chromatic scale to Double High C then flipping to an E above that, he didn’t miss a note. He removed the mouthpiece returning both it and the horn to the case closing the lid and snapping it shut. He turned to me and said: now you heard it, don’t let anyone try to tell you otherwise, I’ll see you next week, goodnight... now PRACTICE!”


https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43092

Paul also writes that at one point Claude had him playing on a 1-1/4C.
From http://maynard.ferguson.net/cacia.htm :

Paul Cacia wrote:
As a young student of Claude’s I started on an Olds Ambassador model trumpet and a 7C mouthpiece. Each six months moving me to a larger mouthpiece until eventually arriving at a 1 1/4C skeletonized Bach with a Morse taper, #19 drill and a full Schmidt backbore. His concept was to overdevelop the entire physical structure for my later career. Muscle has memory. I, of course, later played on a C. G. model Benge.


It's possible that Claude gave Paul his modified 1-1/4C.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
I'll bet a good mouthpiece maker could render a slightly smaller version of that CG1 for you.


No doubt John! I know Matt Frost could do it. I'd just hate to have it done and then find out it it feels too small now, or it was the skeletonized rim after all, or whatever. Makes me apprehensive ordering custom mouthpieces I can't return.

Better the devil you know, etc. Still, that is a good point and worth looking into.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Did some googling and stumbled on your review of James R New’s mouthpieces. I shot him an email regarding making up a mouthpiece with his R rim and D cup with a 22 throat but in an approximate 1 1/4 size. Thanks for the help from the past! Could be just what I’m looking for (I like my Marcincewicz CG Personal but the rim is definitely too small for me).

If I do ever decide to alter my 17b4 mouthpieces, I’ll be sure to update this thread.
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tanda
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m going to paste the relevant section from the stork mouthpiece website here. This might be close to what you are looking for.

The S1 was a design originally conceived by William Vacchiano. The cup shape and volume belong to an original Mount Vernon 5B cup fit to a 1C rim. The MV5B cup is unique in that it has a modified V shaped cup ( compare the S1 cup to the S2 cup below ). It is this cup shape that inspired the Vacchiano line. The bore is larger than standard at 3.8 mm as is the back bore which is a symphonic “D” back bore . This design has been passed around among principal players in orchestras all over the world for the past 35 years or so now. This kind of consistent staying power over the years earns this model a permanent place in the New York Collection. The S2 has a tremendous amount of cup volume without an excess of depth. Put another way this is a very “C” shaped cup with lots of bowl to it. The bore is quite large at 4 mm., but the back bore is moderate in size, not a whole lot larger than our standard back bore. This is a very large symphonic mouthpiece and has served the principal player of a major American orchestra for many years.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I am familiar with the “5B underpart” symphonic mouthpiece that Vacchiano pioneered. I have one in fact and it is fairly close in playing characteristics to to my CG1. “All roads lead to Rome” as they say. The Claude Gordon personal and CG1 are both a little more efficient and open.

Still, I was just hoping someone had some experience or personal knowledge when it came to modifying mouthpieces in the way Claude Gordon did.

Come to think of it, I wonder why Mr. Gordon didn’t start by modifying Bach B cup mouthpieces as they have intrinsic characteristics (v-shaped cup, largeish backbore) that Bach C cup mouthpieces don’t. The answer is probably lost to time and pretty mundane, but interesting to contemplate anyway.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rompson wrote:
John,

Did some googling and stumbled on your review of James R New’s mouthpieces. I shot him an email regarding making up a mouthpiece with his R rim and D cup with a 22 throat but in an approximate 1 1/4 size. Thanks for the help from the past!


You are very welcome.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

V-ing out a mouthpiece does NOT work the same for different players. Where the the “V” starts is a huge variable. If the Top half of the cup is more V shaped it makes the “alpha” angle “higher” meaning your lips have less room in the very top of the cup. This either helps or hurts players depending on how much lip intrusion they have. Some players are helped in the upper register by the extra support, while others are not because the lips get impinged and shut off.

If the top half of the cup is like a 1.25 C which has a “lower” angle, more of a straight down drop from the inner edge, then “V-ing” out the bottom of the cup is mainly going to make the sound darker, more phoofy, and with slower articulation, and it won’t make anything easier in the upper register. That is because the top half of the cup determines more how the upper reg works.

So you won’t know what you need unless you try some things, and when you try a higher alpha angle your lips need some time to assimilate. What ruins that assimilation is if you blast aggressively on a mouthpiece with a “lower” alpha angle which allows and even forces more lip intrusion defeating any ability to assimilate to the higher alpha angle which requires less intrusion.

In an A/B test back and forth of aggressive playing, the lower alpha angle will usually win because that forced lip intrusion ruins it for the higher angle top of cup. It take some time to get used to a higher alpha angle.

The 5C cup widened at the top to a 1.25 diameter will most likely have a higher alpha angle, and could be the ticket to a good sound and good upper register, but it would take some assimilation time.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for these infos lipshurt, that can help an OP in the Mouthpieces forum
best
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did some custom work last year with Jim New and Graham at Marciekiwicz. Basically took the CG cup and put either a 3C or Warburton 4 rim on it. John's right; having more metal UNDER the rim makes a huge difference, I think due to vibrations.
I also went with smaller throat sizes while maintaining the "short throat" that Claude discusses in his book.
I kept the CG backbore, but had them shortened (as well as the shank) because Monettes have large throats and backbores as do the Curry TC series. The reason is intonation.
So with all those mods, I came up with some interesting pieces. They're still big but a bit easier to play on and certainly more comfortable.

Eb
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