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Piccolo Mouthpiece Selection relating to Intonation



 
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trumpetobsession2
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Joined: 16 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:35 am    Post subject: Piccolo Mouthpiece Selection relating to Intonation Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,
It's common knowledge that the open partials on the piccolo trumpet tend to be sharp. I have read that a v shape mouthpiece can make controlling the pitch even more difficult compared to the bowl shape. Does anyone have any insight on this? I ask because I currently play an old Giardinelli 17c which is a V shape, and it is very difficult for me to keep my C's in tune especially as fatigue sets in.
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zaferis
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Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have any design insite per your question, but know, from experience, that it takes most players a significant search to find the mouthpiece fit for piccolo.
The mouthpiece you mention, to me, is quite broad in rim size.. my initial impression is that not only is the cup size/shape an issue but quite possibly the size.

A comment from a very well known player/teacher has stuck with me for 40 years:

"The difference between a Bb piccolo trumpet and our standard Bb is the same as between our standard Bb and a Tenor Trombone - one octave away. No one finds it logical nor practical to use the same mouthpiece on a trombone and trumpet, yet players think that their Bb mouthpiece will naturally work well on their picc......"

good luck with your Safari.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:03 am    Post subject: Piccolo mouthpiece Reply with quote

Hello all,
I find that taper of shank has a lot to do with intonation. More so on Bb, than on pic, but still discernible, as I use a cornet mp. The more open tapers tend to make notes harder to bring down in pitch for me. If I get too tight a taper, sound gets nasal and bright. Especially with a shallower cup. So, it comes down to what piece I am playing, as to what combination I choose. As I have mentioned before, I have a bunch of Warburton pieces to select from...5, 6, 8*, 10* cornet shanks. 6S, 6MC, 5M, 5MC, 4MC cups. I tried the MV cups as they work for Bb trumpet, but not so much for pic...
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NotQuiteFamous
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Joined: 19 Jul 2019
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Piccolo Mouthpiece Selection relating to Intonation Reply with quote

trumpetobsession2 wrote:
Hi Everyone,
It's common knowledge that the open partials on the piccolo trumpet tend to be sharp. I have read that a v shape mouthpiece can make controlling the pitch even more difficult compared to the bowl shape. Does anyone have any insight on this? I ask because I currently play an old Giardinelli 17c which is a V shape, and it is very difficult for me to keep my C's in tune especially as fatigue sets in.


I was not aware of this. And I have been around at least a little bit. Maybe I'm ignorant.

My first thought is that I would completely not worry about anything you have ever heard about the quirks of the piccolo trumpet, and look for a piece that get you THE SOUND on picc. And it may sound downright odd - as in too much - WAY too much - when you find the RIGHT ONE.

You may find that once you achieve THE SOUND, everything else falls into place...

I have a Curry 65p-m for picc(with a 43 trumpet adapter should I need it). And when I compare it to really anything else it sounds just outrageously bright and huge. Almost overbearing. But that is the correct mouthpiece to use. A Close second for me is a Warburton 4sv with an 11 backbore. But the intonation isn't quite as good and I don't do small mouthpieces well(lots of lip protrusion). Same outrageous sound though. But it only sounds outrageous because everything else I used before them was essentially incompatible. Which means worse.

So I don't know you nor your level of playing, but my advice is that you are approaching this backwards. Look for the sound first. Then worry about the minutia of mechanics and physics if you must. And get lessons from some top level pro's if you can just to hear them up close if nothing else.

Also, I would look into something perhaps a bit newer with some reasonable research and development behind it. I know Giardinellis are good but I do think there is something to be said for research and development in the last few decades. Mouthpieces, trumpets, and by extension trumpet players have become at least several orders of magnitude more refined in the last hundred years or so.
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NotQuiteFamous
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Joined: 19 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Piccolo mouthpiece Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
I find that taper of shank has a lot to do with intonation. More so on Bb, than on pic, but still discernible, as I use a cornet mp. The more open tapers tend to make notes harder to bring down in pitch for me. If I get too tight a taper, sound gets nasal and bright. Especially with a shallower cup. So, it comes down to what piece I am playing, as to what combination I choose. As I have mentioned before, I have a bunch of Warburton pieces to select from...5, 6, 8*, 10* cornet shanks. 6S, 6MC, 5M, 5MC, 4MC cups. I tried the MV cups as they work for Bb trumpet, but not so much for pic...


With respect, that issue on a Bb sounds like a gap issue.
Piccolo trumpets have no gap to tinker with.
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Christian K. Peters
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Joined: 12 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Piccolo mouthpiece Reply with quote

Hello Notquitefamous,
My take on gap, for me, is that gap effects some slotting and resistance/stuffiness or lack of. So lack of receiver on a piccolo eliminates those attributes, leaving a player to experiment with different tapers and what they do. I have a variety of Warburton shanks for both trumpet and cornet. I also have a variety of Bb and C trumpets that obviously have receivers. And I have an old Buescher D and Olds Special Bb with integral or receiver-less pipes. I have done a fair amount of experimentation and know what works better for me. In most cases, I can improve the intonation in the upper register by choosing the right taper. I also have some shanks cut for Reeves sleeves and have found that my gap/playibility ratio is somewhere between .05 and .1 according to my gapcheck tool. Gap any bigger and the horn is stuffy...for me, on a horn with a receiver. Just for info sake, all of my trumpets and cornets are Schilke except for the above mentioned.
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Piccolo Mouthpiece Selection relating to Intonation Reply with quote

trumpetobsession2 wrote:
Hi Everyone,
It's common knowledge that the open partials on the piccolo trumpet tend to be sharp. [snip] Does anyone have any insight on this?

The insight is that this mouthpiece does not work on your piccolo trumpet. I have played piccolos which are deliberately setup with a very flat low C (has to be played 1/4) or just wildly out of tune first octaves, and the less valve slide added, the worse it was. (That horn was sold off quick smart)

Using the same mouthpiece you play a Bb on is asking for trouble. Time to visit the mouthpiece shop!
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be just me, but I found a couple interesting things about intonation and my picc (Schilke 7-4).

First of all, it plays a lot better with a Bob Reeves A adapter in the Bb pipe than it does with the stock A pipe itself. Also, if you need to switch quickly between the Bb and A sides, saves time there too. Plus, it's just about the only low-cost thing that Bob Reeves sells, so it's not too painful to try one.

(using cornet shanks throughout)

I think it's kind of bizarre, but I also found that the mouthpiece that worked best for me on the A side was different than the one that works best on the Bb side. Don't know why, don't pretend to know why, it just is.

So, I'd say if you are on a picc mouthpiece safari, make sure you try them all on both sides of the horn. YMMV.
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