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rayhandri6859 New Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2021 Posts: 8
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:08 pm Post subject: High Range Development for a High Schooler |
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Hello all,
I am a high school student and I am in the top bands and jazz ensembles at said high school along with an outside-of-school regional jazz ensemble. I enjoy the trumpet tremendously, (I am a 10th grader and still want to decide whether or not to take trumpet into college), but I also really want to improve my own skills. Whenever I play in the high register (high G and above) for 30 seconds or so, I am completely blown out. I also want to improve my range since my highest consistent note is a High Bb. I am unable to hit the High C consistently.
I play trumpet in school Mondays through Fridays for an hour each day. Whenever I try to play after school (in extracurricular bands and whatnot) I feel like my range and endurance are significantly worse than they are in the mornings. What do you all suggest to help me improve my range and endurance?
Also, as a side note, I am a lot more into the jazz aspect of trumpet playing than the classical side. I would consider myself a good improviser, but I still have a lot of room for improvement. Any suggestions on that?
In summary, I want to improve my high note proficiency and range. I play a lot during school, so will this impede my ability to get in some good development sessions? What do you suggest in terms of material to work on to improve my range and endurance?
Thanks |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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The standard questions -
1) Do you have a trumpet teacher who is trying to help you improve your high range? And teaching general 'trumpet playing' as well?
2) If you have a teacher, what seems to be the general instructions / information you are given about improving high range?
3) Rim pressure - are you trying to 'muscle' your way to play higher? Have you heard / tried any of the 'skill techniques' about how to use your lips, jaw, tongue, air flow direction, etc.?
For most players, the 'muscle' approach begins to falter at about the range you mention for yourself. Getting beyond that requires learning some 'skills' - and NO that does not always mean an embouchure change. If your basic embouchure is ok, then it's more about learning how to EXTEND the functions that you already are doing. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 984
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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https://jimmanleymusic.com/trumpet-lessons
Go listen to his music and see if he is high enough quality
for you to learn from.
May be the best $75 of your trumpet playing life.
Last edited by Shaft on Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:49 am; edited 4 times in total |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Shaft wrote: | https://jimmanleymusic.com/trumpet-lessons
Go listen to his music and see if he is high enough quality
for you to learn from.
May be the best $75 of your trumpet playing life. |
+1
...and get a regular private trumpet teacher in your area. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:27 am Post subject: Re: High Range Development for a High Schooler |
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rayhandri6859 wrote: | Hello all,
I am a high school student and I am in the top bands and jazz ensembles at said high school along with an outside-of-school regional jazz ensemble. I enjoy the trumpet tremendously, (I am a 10th grader and still want to decide whether or not to take trumpet into college), but I also really want to improve my own skills. Whenever I play in the high register (high G and above) for 30 seconds or so, I am completely blown out. I also want to improve my range since my highest consistent note is a High Bb. I am unable to hit the High C consistently.
I play trumpet in school Mondays through Fridays for an hour each day. Whenever I try to play after school (in extracurricular bands and whatnot) I feel like my range and endurance are significantly worse than they are in the mornings. What do you all suggest to help me improve my range and endurance?
Also, as a side note, I am a lot more into the jazz aspect of trumpet playing than the classical side. I would consider myself a good improviser, but I still have a lot of room for improvement. Any suggestions on that?
In summary, I want to improve my high note proficiency and range. I play a lot during school, so will this impede my ability to get in some good development sessions? What do you suggest in terms of material to work on to improve my range and endurance?
Thanks |
You need personal guidance from a qualified teacher.
Where do you live? _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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You need to do something differently than what you're doing now. The problem is getting at the specifics of that "something".
The changes you need to make might be subtle but crucially important. As someone who spent a long time in the range doldrums, the problem is a lot of what you might hear - the classic advice is making an "eee" or "heee" formation with your tongue isn't nearly specific enough and it doesn't address the totality of what needs to happen - all the parts need to occur or it won't work.
My reaction to the "eee" formation directive is "uhh...sort of". Actually I'd say it's more like a "sheh".
Playing say a top of the staff G and a G over high C are *completely* different sensations with different requirements. The throat and tongue are doing something very different, the upper and lower lip do different things, there's what the lower teeth and teeth opening are doing, and you need to really be slamming the air. For me with the air I feel a sort of "huh" sensation from my chest. People talk a lot about the diaphragm, that's not where I feel it or drive from. I feel like I'm going "huh" harder and harder.
It feels "tighter" overall, but not closed up - you can't choke off the air. It's very isometric - i.e. the change in tension. Pretty much my whole face gets involved.
It could also involve setting the mouthpiece differently. How I set the mouthpiece now is very different than how I used to do it - for myself it involves trapping the tissue a particular way.
I would say experiment a lot. A teacher can be helpful but very likely won't be able to tell you the subtleties of specifically what you need to do. I can tell you from frustrating personal experience that endless practice by itself won't get you there, you have to find the specific way to do it, and then be tuned in enough to make it consistently repeatable.
I would encourage you to post video of yourself playing to give an idea of what you're doing now. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:38 am; edited 3 times in total |
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 191
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Hello Players
Robert P writes Quote: | I would say experiment a lot. A teacher can be helpful but very likely won't be able to tell you the subtleties of specifically what you need to do. I can tell you from frustrating personal experience that endless practice by itself won't get you there, you have to find the specific way to do it, and then be tuned in enough to make it consistently repeatable. |
I agree with that Robert P. I think the good thing about experimenting is you can work out within a week are you going in the right direction or not.
Shaft, thanks for the Jim Manley tip, Quote: | Go listen to his music and see if he is high enough quality for you to learn from. May be the best $75 of your trumpet playing life. |
Thanks to you I have now booked a lesson 2 weeks from now...(I only have on average one lesson a year and now I am in Year6 so fingers crossed!)
cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki _________________ My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | ... I would say experiment a lot. A teacher can be helpful but very likely won't be able to tell you the subtleties of specifically what you need to do. I can tell you from frustrating personal experience that endless practice by itself won't get you there, you have to find the specific way to do it, and then be tuned in enough to make it consistently repeatable. ... |
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I agree with Robert P's comments. And while precise 'subtleties' might not be possible to describe, there are some 'basic items' that are the foundation of effective embouchure formation and use.
Achieving those 'basics' is the goal, and the subtleties are the specific methods for each individual. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:49 am Post subject: Re: High Range Development for a High Schooler |
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Billy B wrote: | rayhandri6859 wrote: | Hello all... |
You need personal guidance from a qualified teacher.
Where do you live? |
This^^^ _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: High Range Development for a High Schooler |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gonya Regular Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2021 Posts: 30 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:10 am Post subject: |
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I am also in 10th grade and have developed my range up to a decent sounding high F. The biggest thing for me was playing softly. When you play loud, your responsive gets worse and practicing doesn’t feel productive. When you play quiet, you are training your embouchure to respond to a small amount of air, which is what’s necessary to play in the upper register. Slur up to and articulate notes a little bit below the top of your range softly, and you will gradually improve. Lip flexibilities also help, but don’t overdo them. Most great high note players (I’m definitely not yet) agree that playing softly is key to developing a strong upper register. _________________ "Let's face it, god didn't create us specifically to play the trumpet." - Doc Severinsen |
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Stradbrother Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Posts: 150
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Other folks have said it before, but building up those high notes is all about getting familiar with them at a soft dynamic, then building up the power from there.
Check this out https://imgv2-2-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/359341040/original/dd743c82d3/1652785208?v=1
Working in triads softly helps you hear the higher notes before you get there.
The key is just doing as much as you can. When you hit your limit, stop.
And im talking very quietly. Like as quietly as you can produce a tone.
They key behind the exercise is to introduce these high notes to your toolbox so you can come back to them later.
So many younger players see a D above the staff and just say a prayer and hope they hit it, but once you're familiar with that note, you'll know exactly how to aim for it, and build in some power behind your tone at louder dynamics.
But definitely look for a private teacher. |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Stradbrother wrote: | Other folks have said it before, but building up those high notes is all about getting familiar with them at a soft dynamic, then building up the power from there.
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I have no idea who declared this to be a "trumpet axiom" - it's not at all how I eventually made progress from being mired in range problems. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Robert P,
I completely agree with you. You have to first develop Wind Power before you can develop Wind Control. To try to play too soft before you have experienced the coordination of Wind Power and Tongue Level only creates more problems. Once you experience that coordination you can understand by experience how it's possible to play everything easier and range and endurance and everything else is a byproduct of that.
This is one of the reasons so many younger players develop bad habits because in beginning band class they are told to play softer to balance the ensemble of other instruments not as loud as trumpet.
I am not saying to blast uncontrolled. But, you have to play with enough power to experience the air doing the majority of the work and not trying to over focus on the lips.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: |
Robert P wrote: |
I have no idea who declared this to be a "trumpet axiom" - it's not at all how I eventually made progress from being mired in range problems. |
Robert P,
I completely agree with you. You have to first develop Wind Power before you can develop Wind Control. To try to play too soft before you have experienced the coordination of Wind Power and Tongue Level only creates more problems. Once you experience that coordination you can understand by experience how it's possible to play everything easier and range and endurance and everything else is a byproduct of that.
This is one of the reasons so many younger players develop bad habits because in beginning band class they are told to play softer to balance the ensemble of other instruments not as loud as trumpet.
I am not saying to blast uncontrolled. But, you have to play with enough power to experience the air doing the majority of the work and not trying to over focus on the lips.
Jeff |
I wouldn't even say that wind/air power was the problem. At least for myself I could play up to a point without too much trouble - basically up to a top the staff G - had plenty of power and even had good articulation and technical facility - in that respect I actually exceeded some of my peers. But at a certain point the demands to play higher require you to do certain things with the chops - I was continually taking the wrong fork in the road so to speak. I had enough air power, but for things to work *all* the parts have to come together.
I recall even hitting an F a couple of times in high school and it was a *WHOA!!* experience. It was surprising because it actually came out fairly easily. But I didn't understand how I did it and couldn't repeat it - as a general rule anything over the staff was a question mark. My assumption was that some people are just born with a certain physiognomy that facilitates playing higher and overall success. I still believe that some people have a natural leg up - obviously there's a reason Doc was winning contests as a kid - I've heard him say he didn't have the vaguest idea what he was doing, it just came naturally for him. But I eventually learned that while I might not have been born with the ideal chops higher notes aren't out of reach for me.
I would agree that band class by itself isn't a great environment to learn trumpet because you constantly have to suck on the horn. You need to be studying privately from someone who knows what they're doing and have ample opportunity to open up and blow without getting the stinkeye from Mr. Bandleder. My experience is there are lots of teachers who can assign exercises, work on articulation and musicality - they know what good playing sounds like - which is fine if you happen to be someone who isn't having problems but there aren't a lot of chops-savvy teachers - none of the teachers I ran across had the vaguest idea how to help me. One old duffer who declared himself a "master of embouchures" told me his honest advice was that I should switch to trombone. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpet2012fhl Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011 Posts: 268
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read through all of the other comments, so I'm sorry if this is a repeat.
I highly recommend you find a good warm-up routine. This is one of the number one things that has helped me build my range. Think of it in a physical aspect. If you are lifting weights or any exercse and you didn't stretch or warm-up, you may be able to do well for a little while, however, you won't maintain any of the progress. A good warm-up sets your chops up to accept whatever you are about to work on.
I would suggest finding a warm-up that works for you that hits all of the basics. Long tones, flexibility, articulation, etc. All while focusing on the sound you are producing. Just playing through one or two exercises that you do in band class probably isn't cutting it for a thorough warm-up.
Once you have that down the thing I found is small progress. You may not play as high as you did the day before, but maybe the notes before it was easier or maybe you had a better sound, etc. Take the small wins and grow from there. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I would recommend purchasing the following books:
Clarke Technical Studies
Irons 27 Groups of Exercises
Vincent-Cichowicz-Fundamental-Studies
https://www.amazon.com/Vincent-Cichowicz-Fundamental-Studies-Developing/dp/1705120474
Claude Gordon Physical Approach To Elementary Brass Playing
https://www.amazon.com/Physical-Approach-Elementary-Brass-Playing/dp/0825832802
Have your band director help you put together a daily routine using these books. Practice it every day either before or after school. If you are serious about getting better get some lessons and make sure the person you are taking lessons from shows you how to practice correctly. As you build a foundation your efficiency will improve which will also improve your endurance and high notes. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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Big C Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2018 Posts: 53 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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I don't doubt that all of the experts that posted on this thread are, in their own way, speaking truth. And yet, can you imagine how frustrating it is to hear the frequent conflicting advice? (play quiet, no don't, etc.) And this is without even broaching the subject of whether to buzz the lips/mpc or not! (lol)
With all the different advice I hear, it makes me wonder: How do I go about finding a "qualified" teacher? References? (I am a comeback player in the Oakland, CA area. I could do some zoom, but I feel like I'd want to do the first few in person.) _________________ '78 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
'59 Reynolds Argenta cornet
Last edited by Big C on Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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“By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them” _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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