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High Range Development for a High Schooler


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rayhandri6859
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:08 pm    Post subject: High Range Development for a High Schooler Reply with quote

Hello all,

I am a high school student and I am in the top bands and jazz ensembles at said high school along with an outside-of-school regional jazz ensemble. I enjoy the trumpet tremendously, (I am a 10th grader and still want to decide whether or not to take trumpet into college), but I also really want to improve my own skills. Whenever I play in the high register (high G and above) for 30 seconds or so, I am completely blown out. I also want to improve my range since my highest consistent note is a High Bb. I am unable to hit the High C consistently.

I play trumpet in school Mondays through Fridays for an hour each day. Whenever I try to play after school (in extracurricular bands and whatnot) I feel like my range and endurance are significantly worse than they are in the mornings. What do you all suggest to help me improve my range and endurance?

Also, as a side note, I am a lot more into the jazz aspect of trumpet playing than the classical side. I would consider myself a good improviser, but I still have a lot of room for improvement. Any suggestions on that?

In summary, I want to improve my high note proficiency and range. I play a lot during school, so will this impede my ability to get in some good development sessions? What do you suggest in terms of material to work on to improve my range and endurance?

Thanks
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The standard questions -
1) Do you have a trumpet teacher who is trying to help you improve your high range? And teaching general 'trumpet playing' as well?
2) If you have a teacher, what seems to be the general instructions / information you are given about improving high range?
3) Rim pressure - are you trying to 'muscle' your way to play higher? Have you heard / tried any of the 'skill techniques' about how to use your lips, jaw, tongue, air flow direction, etc.?

For most players, the 'muscle' approach begins to falter at about the range you mention for yourself. Getting beyond that requires learning some 'skills' - and NO that does not always mean an embouchure change. If your basic embouchure is ok, then it's more about learning how to EXTEND the functions that you already are doing.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://jimmanleymusic.com/trumpet-lessons

Go listen to his music and see if he is high enough quality
for you to learn from.

May be the best $75 of your trumpet playing life.


Last edited by Shaft on Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:49 am; edited 4 times in total
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
https://jimmanleymusic.com/trumpet-lessons

Go listen to his music and see if he is high enough quality
for you to learn from.

May be the best $75 of your trumpet playing life.

+1
...and get a regular private trumpet teacher in your area.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: High Range Development for a High Schooler Reply with quote

rayhandri6859 wrote:
Hello all,

I am a high school student and I am in the top bands and jazz ensembles at said high school along with an outside-of-school regional jazz ensemble. I enjoy the trumpet tremendously, (I am a 10th grader and still want to decide whether or not to take trumpet into college), but I also really want to improve my own skills. Whenever I play in the high register (high G and above) for 30 seconds or so, I am completely blown out. I also want to improve my range since my highest consistent note is a High Bb. I am unable to hit the High C consistently.

I play trumpet in school Mondays through Fridays for an hour each day. Whenever I try to play after school (in extracurricular bands and whatnot) I feel like my range and endurance are significantly worse than they are in the mornings. What do you all suggest to help me improve my range and endurance?

Also, as a side note, I am a lot more into the jazz aspect of trumpet playing than the classical side. I would consider myself a good improviser, but I still have a lot of room for improvement. Any suggestions on that?

In summary, I want to improve my high note proficiency and range. I play a lot during school, so will this impede my ability to get in some good development sessions? What do you suggest in terms of material to work on to improve my range and endurance?

Thanks


You need personal guidance from a qualified teacher.

Where do you live?
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to do something differently than what you're doing now. The problem is getting at the specifics of that "something".

The changes you need to make might be subtle but crucially important. As someone who spent a long time in the range doldrums, the problem is a lot of what you might hear - the classic advice is making an "eee" or "heee" formation with your tongue isn't nearly specific enough and it doesn't address the totality of what needs to happen - all the parts need to occur or it won't work.

My reaction to the "eee" formation directive is "uhh...sort of". Actually I'd say it's more like a "sheh".

Playing say a top of the staff G and a G over high C are *completely* different sensations with different requirements. The throat and tongue are doing something very different, the upper and lower lip do different things, there's what the lower teeth and teeth opening are doing, and you need to really be slamming the air. For me with the air I feel a sort of "huh" sensation from my chest. People talk a lot about the diaphragm, that's not where I feel it or drive from. I feel like I'm going "huh" harder and harder.

It feels "tighter" overall, but not closed up - you can't choke off the air. It's very isometric - i.e. the change in tension. Pretty much my whole face gets involved.

It could also involve setting the mouthpiece differently. How I set the mouthpiece now is very different than how I used to do it - for myself it involves trapping the tissue a particular way.

I would say experiment a lot. A teacher can be helpful but very likely won't be able to tell you the subtleties of specifically what you need to do. I can tell you from frustrating personal experience that endless practice by itself won't get you there, you have to find the specific way to do it, and then be tuned in enough to make it consistently repeatable.

I would encourage you to post video of yourself playing to give an idea of what you're doing now.
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Last edited by Robert P on Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:38 am; edited 3 times in total
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Players

Robert P writes
Quote:
I would say experiment a lot. A teacher can be helpful but very likely won't be able to tell you the subtleties of specifically what you need to do. I can tell you from frustrating personal experience that endless practice by itself won't get you there, you have to find the specific way to do it, and then be tuned in enough to make it consistently repeatable.


I agree with that Robert P. I think the good thing about experimenting is you can work out within a week are you going in the right direction or not.

Shaft, thanks for the Jim Manley tip,
Quote:
Go listen to his music and see if he is high enough quality for you to learn from. May be the best $75 of your trumpet playing life.

Thanks to you I have now booked a lesson 2 weeks from now...(I only have on average one lesson a year and now I am in Year6 so fingers crossed!)

cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
... I would say experiment a lot. A teacher can be helpful but very likely won't be able to tell you the subtleties of specifically what you need to do. I can tell you from frustrating personal experience that endless practice by itself won't get you there, you have to find the specific way to do it, and then be tuned in enough to make it consistently repeatable. ...

-------------------------------------------
I agree with Robert P's comments. And while precise 'subtleties' might not be possible to describe, there are some 'basic items' that are the foundation of effective embouchure formation and use.

Achieving those 'basics' is the goal, and the subtleties are the specific methods for each individual.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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PH
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: High Range Development for a High Schooler Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
rayhandri6859 wrote:
Hello all...


You need personal guidance from a qualified teacher.

Where do you live?


This^^^
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: High Range Development for a High Schooler Reply with quote

DB

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Gonya
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also in 10th grade and have developed my range up to a decent sounding high F. The biggest thing for me was playing softly. When you play loud, your responsive gets worse and practicing doesn’t feel productive. When you play quiet, you are training your embouchure to respond to a small amount of air, which is what’s necessary to play in the upper register. Slur up to and articulate notes a little bit below the top of your range softly, and you will gradually improve. Lip flexibilities also help, but don’t overdo them. Most great high note players (I’m definitely not yet) agree that playing softly is key to developing a strong upper register.
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Stradbrother
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other folks have said it before, but building up those high notes is all about getting familiar with them at a soft dynamic, then building up the power from there.

Check this out https://imgv2-2-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/359341040/original/dd743c82d3/1652785208?v=1

Working in triads softly helps you hear the higher notes before you get there.

The key is just doing as much as you can. When you hit your limit, stop.

And im talking very quietly. Like as quietly as you can produce a tone.

They key behind the exercise is to introduce these high notes to your toolbox so you can come back to them later.

So many younger players see a D above the staff and just say a prayer and hope they hit it, but once you're familiar with that note, you'll know exactly how to aim for it, and build in some power behind your tone at louder dynamics.

But definitely look for a private teacher.
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something free to listen to.
https://www.purtle.com/audio/claude-gordon-brass-camp-1992-claude-gordon-wind-power-carl-leach
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stradbrother wrote:
Other folks have said it before, but building up those high notes is all about getting familiar with them at a soft dynamic, then building up the power from there.

I have no idea who declared this to be a "trumpet axiom" - it's not at all how I eventually made progress from being mired in range problems.
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P,

I completely agree with you. You have to first develop Wind Power before you can develop Wind Control. To try to play too soft before you have experienced the coordination of Wind Power and Tongue Level only creates more problems. Once you experience that coordination you can understand by experience how it's possible to play everything easier and range and endurance and everything else is a byproduct of that.

This is one of the reasons so many younger players develop bad habits because in beginning band class they are told to play softer to balance the ensemble of other instruments not as loud as trumpet.

I am not saying to blast uncontrolled. But, you have to play with enough power to experience the air doing the majority of the work and not trying to over focus on the lips.

Jeff
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:

Robert P wrote:

I have no idea who declared this to be a "trumpet axiom" - it's not at all how I eventually made progress from being mired in range problems.

Robert P,

I completely agree with you. You have to first develop Wind Power before you can develop Wind Control. To try to play too soft before you have experienced the coordination of Wind Power and Tongue Level only creates more problems. Once you experience that coordination you can understand by experience how it's possible to play everything easier and range and endurance and everything else is a byproduct of that.

This is one of the reasons so many younger players develop bad habits because in beginning band class they are told to play softer to balance the ensemble of other instruments not as loud as trumpet.

I am not saying to blast uncontrolled. But, you have to play with enough power to experience the air doing the majority of the work and not trying to over focus on the lips.

Jeff

I wouldn't even say that wind/air power was the problem. At least for myself I could play up to a point without too much trouble - basically up to a top the staff G - had plenty of power and even had good articulation and technical facility - in that respect I actually exceeded some of my peers. But at a certain point the demands to play higher require you to do certain things with the chops - I was continually taking the wrong fork in the road so to speak. I had enough air power, but for things to work *all* the parts have to come together.

I recall even hitting an F a couple of times in high school and it was a *WHOA!!* experience. It was surprising because it actually came out fairly easily. But I didn't understand how I did it and couldn't repeat it - as a general rule anything over the staff was a question mark. My assumption was that some people are just born with a certain physiognomy that facilitates playing higher and overall success. I still believe that some people have a natural leg up - obviously there's a reason Doc was winning contests as a kid - I've heard him say he didn't have the vaguest idea what he was doing, it just came naturally for him. But I eventually learned that while I might not have been born with the ideal chops higher notes aren't out of reach for me.

I would agree that band class by itself isn't a great environment to learn trumpet because you constantly have to suck on the horn. You need to be studying privately from someone who knows what they're doing and have ample opportunity to open up and blow without getting the stinkeye from Mr. Bandleder. My experience is there are lots of teachers who can assign exercises, work on articulation and musicality - they know what good playing sounds like - which is fine if you happen to be someone who isn't having problems but there aren't a lot of chops-savvy teachers - none of the teachers I ran across had the vaguest idea how to help me. One old duffer who declared himself a "master of embouchures" told me his honest advice was that I should switch to trombone.
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trumpet2012fhl
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read through all of the other comments, so I'm sorry if this is a repeat.

I highly recommend you find a good warm-up routine. This is one of the number one things that has helped me build my range. Think of it in a physical aspect. If you are lifting weights or any exercse and you didn't stretch or warm-up, you may be able to do well for a little while, however, you won't maintain any of the progress. A good warm-up sets your chops up to accept whatever you are about to work on.

I would suggest finding a warm-up that works for you that hits all of the basics. Long tones, flexibility, articulation, etc. All while focusing on the sound you are producing. Just playing through one or two exercises that you do in band class probably isn't cutting it for a thorough warm-up.

Once you have that down the thing I found is small progress. You may not play as high as you did the day before, but maybe the notes before it was easier or maybe you had a better sound, etc. Take the small wins and grow from there.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would recommend purchasing the following books:

Clarke Technical Studies

Irons 27 Groups of Exercises

Vincent-Cichowicz-Fundamental-Studies

https://www.amazon.com/Vincent-Cichowicz-Fundamental-Studies-Developing/dp/1705120474

Claude Gordon Physical Approach To Elementary Brass Playing

https://www.amazon.com/Physical-Approach-Elementary-Brass-Playing/dp/0825832802

Have your band director help you put together a daily routine using these books. Practice it every day either before or after school. If you are serious about getting better get some lessons and make sure the person you are taking lessons from shows you how to practice correctly. As you build a foundation your efficiency will improve which will also improve your endurance and high notes.
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Big C
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't doubt that all of the experts that posted on this thread are, in their own way, speaking truth. And yet, can you imagine how frustrating it is to hear the frequent conflicting advice? (play quiet, no don't, etc.) And this is without even broaching the subject of whether to buzz the lips/mpc or not! (lol)

With all the different advice I hear, it makes me wonder: How do I go about finding a "qualified" teacher? References? (I am a comeback player in the Oakland, CA area. I could do some zoom, but I feel like I'd want to do the first few in person.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them”
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