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A question about playing above staff


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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject: A question about playing above staff Reply with quote

I have been experimenting with putting more lip in front of mp (pucker ?) to try to play more on the inside of the lips. I am also trying to push the horn away a bit when I ascend and it seems to let the lips vibrate a bit more freely. I am getting really strong notes up to hi f, but higher and the tone of the note gets weaker. I usually devote about a half hour a day to range over 2 sessions. For those of you who use the pucker type placement what do you use to climb higher with fuller sound. It may b that I’m too new to this to have enough strength/coordination/ pick your word and it may just take more time (only 2 months into change) but I will try anything that makes sense. I asked this forum because everyone does this differently and I thought someone had run into similar.
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Rod
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Air and Tongue Arch along with a slightly more rolled out setting.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello Rod
sometimes, a good technic looses efficiency or does more harm than good when one exagerates the movement.
Maybe, you're puckering too much and it cuts the vibration at one moment ?
best
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
hello Rod
sometimes, a good technic looses efficiency or does more harm than good when one exagerates the movement.
Maybe, you're puckering too much and it cuts the vibration at one moment ?
best


That is absolutely true. In the upper range extremely small adjustments can make a huge difference. The difference between a 125 db DHC and shut off can be just a tiny difference in tongue arch or lip setting.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how it all folds in upon itself. I recently read a little on Maggio or monkey face. I simply tried to model the picture and blew a few notes. I think I discovered a bit of something that works for me. As soon as I started directing the air up a bit. (don’t know how it just worked) the upper range began working much better with low air volume. I can now play up to Hi f with a very clear and ringing tone and my squeals go into the doubles. I am very careful to just test this as it’s new and my strength hasn’t developed to forte, but this is just flat out a revelation. I’m going to take this slow and easy as I have just discovered it works for me. Can any upstream players give me more insight into this totally alien way of doing things. I have played about 10 years total with about 50 years between the first 6 and the last 4, but this is real for me.
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Rod
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:

That is absolutely true. In the upper range extremely small adjustments can make a huge difference. The difference between a 125 db DHC and shut off can be just a tiny difference in tongue arch or lip setting.


Very well put.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
... As soon as I started directing the air up a bit. (don’t know how it just worked) the upper range began working much better with low air volume. I can now play up to Hi f with a very clear and ringing tone and my squeals go into the doubles. ...

-------------------
Do you change the position of your jaw/lower teeth in the process of directing the air upwards?
Do you notice any change in how the mpc pressure is distributed between upper and lower teeth?

Jay
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the act of doing monkey face does move the jaw forward. I have noticed that I can now do the 20 minute g for about 7-8 minutes correctly now where it was about 5 before at most. If I remember to set this way the notes are easier longer. Having some issues with tongue level as sometimes lowering the tongue seems to put more air on the lower lip and that seems to be an advantage to me. I’m just wondering where I can read about upstream play??
Rod
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod,
directing the air is taught by Bobby Shew as air pivot, and no surprise according to that, that you can have an easier high register when directing the air up.

About the term "upstream', we have to definite it, since for some it means playing 1/3 up, for others it means having an upward horn angle, for others it means you direct the air mainly in the upper part of the cup... And this last without physical certainty.
I play with 1/3 top lip, which would class me as an upstream player, but, my horn angle is not like Andrea Tofanelli or Giuffredi, so...

Excuse me if i don't understand you well, but according to what i understand rom you post, i'd not relate the air pivoting with puckering, these are two different parameters that you can combinate or no.

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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m sorry that I cannot explain this as I just tried it and it is working. By pucker I meant trying to get more lip in mp. The lower lip a bit up and forward and it feels as if more air strikes the lower lip and this seems to direct air upward into cup (as you said with no certainty just feels that way). Lower lip seems to be where I feel greatest vibration in complete opposition to previous setting. I am struggling to find more about this or maybe just keep learning by experiment?
Rod
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be this: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69298&highlight=roy+stevens
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod
i wanted to say that puckering and air pivoting are independent.
Air pivoting is done independently from one's embouchure adopted : the ones that pucker, unfurl, roll in, etc..
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Ok I better understand the issue. I may roll out a bit under this embouchure but it would be a by product of that. I tried BE roll out and in and found some new things out but never used either roll in or out as more than an exercise. It seems as if my lower lip is forward a bit and the teeth definitely are at minimum aligned and at most slightly forward. This setting required no more of me than making the monkey face and combining some aspects of the whisper g - relaxation in center of lips and slightly firmed corners. It’s just that now I notice the lower lip is doing the heavy work and the and I am aiming (?) lower with air which is causing more vibration on the lower lip than I felt with the old equal to slight upper lip placement on the mp. Just played a scale from low f# to hi g with good tone and resonance thruout. I can now go from hi c to double c reliably with much less tone and volume. But the pitch is there and never was before. I really only want a reliable strong hi g and so do a lot of us, but I just surprised I hadn’t stumbled (I stumble alot) across this way of doing things. I guess experimenting and being your own teacher is a little like blind squirrels and acorns
I ordered the Stevens book and hope to learn a bit there. Thanks for reply’s, I welcome more. And I’ll see what I can find on the Shew and Ingram perspective. Funny I’ve got Ingram’s clinical notes and he doesn’t mention upstream.
Rod
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod,

Whatever you do, remember how it feels when it works. Being able to play higher and higher with no cut off point, even with significantly decreasing volume, is a sign that you have found the right setting. And it’s not a chop strength thing, it’s a finesse thing. I find best results when I approach the upper range with the idea of playing the notes softly. In fact that is how I fix it when I shut off.
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scarface
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Rod,

Whatever you do, remember how it feels when it works. Being able to play higher and higher with no cut off point, even with significantly decreasing volume, is a sign that you have found the right setting. And it’s not a chop strength thing, it’s a finesse thing. I find best results when I approach the upper range with the idea of playing the notes softly. In fact that is how I fix it when I shut off.


Like.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Rod,

Whatever you do, remember how it feels when it works. Being able to play higher and higher with no cut off point, even with significantly decreasing volume, is a sign that you have found the right setting. And it’s not a chop strength thing, it’s a finesse thing. I find best results when I approach the upper range with the idea of playing the notes softly. In fact that is how I fix it when I shut off.


that's very true, but according to my experience, if i spend too many days or one week for instance playing only at soft volume, just focusing on slotting the notes, i lose accuracy in the high register (above high C) when i play in a gig, as a lead, or for soloing in salsa stuff i.e
So, one must not minorize the strength component
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
INTJ wrote:
Rod,

Whatever you do, remember how it feels when it works. Being able to play higher and higher with no cut off point, even with significantly decreasing volume, is a sign that you have found the right setting. And it’s not a chop strength thing, it’s a finesse thing. I find best results when I approach the upper range with the idea of playing the notes softly. In fact that is how I fix it when I shut off.


that's very true, but according to my experience, if i spend too many days or one week for instance playing only at soft volume, just focusing on slotting the notes, i lose accuracy in the high register (above high C) when i play in a gig, as a lead, or for soloing in salsa stuff i.e
So, one must not minorize the strength component


I’m thinking for right now I just need to keep working on sounding the notes and getting the feel. I can get some volume out of the hi g but I’m a bit afraid of blowing too hard and “blowing” my success to date. I’m less than a month into this change and luckily adapt pretty quickly to changes in aperture since I been experimenting for 3 years. Right now the biggest thing for me is to start the monkey face and the rest seems to fall in place. Normally I would just sit on it to see how it developed, but this seems to be all positive to this point, more resonant, clearer and louder on what I had and getting higher than ever before on notes I don’t deem to be there yet (usable). Also I’m not quite sure how to start applying the flow I’ll need to get a good double. But I can’t say I’m in a big hurry, Ive rushed in too quickly before and that only develops future problems. I need to do more research on what is out there on this method, but I so like what’s happening. When I gained 3 minutes on the whisper g I knew something was better. Keep those cards and letters coming in.

I guess that the biggest takeaway for me is that I should have tried this long ago and for hi school and the hi e limits of the music I normally played I didn’t need it but I was simply never exposed to the one method which was meant to cut me loose. Those who teach should at least remember that some don’t fit the mold.
Rod
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
...
I ordered the Stevens book and hope to learn a bit there. ...

-----------
I've found the Roy Stevens' explanations and descriptions to be helpful - from the material that's available online. I haven't read the actual 'books'.

My understanding of the 'upstream' air flow concept is that it RESULTS from moving the lower jaw and teeth slightly forward, AND transferring some mpc pressure from the upper teeth onto the lower ones.

I use a conventional ~50/50 upper/lower mpc rim placement, and a slightly downward tilt of the horn - just enough to see the music page, and prevent condensation backflow.

Jay
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
INTJ wrote:
Rod,

Whatever you do, remember how it feels when it works. Being able to play higher and higher with no cut off point, even with significantly decreasing volume, is a sign that you have found the right setting. And it’s not a chop strength thing, it’s a finesse thing. I find best results when I approach the upper range with the idea of playing the notes softly. In fact that is how I fix it when I shut off.


that's very true, but according to my experience, if i spend too many days or one week for instance playing only at soft volume, just focusing on slotting the notes, i lose accuracy in the high register (above high C) when i play in a gig, as a lead, or for soloing in salsa stuff i.e
So, one must not minorize the strength component


It is the exact opposite with me. When I forget myself and play loud I overdo it. Then again, what I call soft produces enough volume and projection to be heard over the band. When I say “soft”, I mean approaching the note like a soft note and not pushing to get the feedback we usually get from playing loud.

With how you are conceptualizing this, my soft is likely what you consider loud and my loud is what you consider over blowing. Since I am a chronic over doer, “soft” is the concept I need to keep in my mind. For someone else—with better balance to their approach to playing, the concept of loud maybe what they need in the upper range.

I do know this. The volume in front of the bell is significantly more than the volume behind the bell
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
JVL wrote:
INTJ wrote:
Rod,

Whatever you do, remember how it feels when it works. Being able to play higher and higher with no cut off point, even with significantly decreasing volume, is a sign that you have found the right setting. And it’s not a chop strength thing, it’s a finesse thing. I find best results when I approach the upper range with the idea of playing the notes softly. In fact that is how I fix it when I shut off.


that's very true, but according to my experience, if i spend too many days or one week for instance playing only at soft volume, just focusing on slotting the notes, i lose accuracy in the high register (above high C) when i play in a gig, as a lead, or for soloing in salsa stuff i.e
So, one must not minorize the strength component

It is the exact opposite with me. When I forget myself and play loud I overdo it. Then again, what I call soft produces enough volume and projection to be heard over the band. When I say “soft”, I mean approaching the note like a soft note and not pushing to get the feedback we usually get from playing loud.

With how you are conceptualizing this, my soft is likely what you consider loud and my loud is what you consider over blowing. Since I am a chronic over doer, “soft” is the concept I need to keep in my mind. For someone else—with better balance to their approach to playing, the concept of loud maybe what they need in the upper range.

I do know this. The volume in front of the bell is significantly more than the volume behind the bell


Often wondered about this. But what I’m talking about is learning to get the same sound as lower notes without the thinned tone. I really cannot expect more till I experience it more and perhaps read a bit.
Rod
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