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JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
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 Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: |
Aren't Flip Oaks built by Kanstul and therefore rather tenable, at this point? |
In regard to your question, there is a brief announcement about the Fusion line on the front page of www.flipoakes.com if you scroll down a bit. That's the latest that is known.
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 654
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Go for the Bach, you can't go wrong with a 180/37 and in case you won't become friends you can sell them easy
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | JetJaguar wrote: | | You might want to wait and see what develops with the Flip Oakes Fusion line of trumpets. They're not on the market yet, but there should be some news about them in the next few weeks or so. As far as when exactly, we're just hanging tight because Flip just returned home from bypass surgery. |
Aren't Flip Oaks built by Kanstul and therefore rather tenable, at this point? |
Tenable - able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.
Not sure what you meant, but, no, the fusion horns are new and “They are Flip Oakes' designs built off-shore” according to this thread. |
Yep, I had a conversation with Flip, he told me the same thing. His designs, but not necessarily Wild Thing clones.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | I've been very consistent on this point over the years: If you're going to own only one pro level trumpet then the one to own is the Bach Strad Model 37. It's the largest selling pro horn out there and if you pay a fair price for a used one you'll be able to sell it for what you have invested in it. A Xeno is an excellent horn but the safest bet overall is a Bach Strad Model 37.
There has been a lot of comment about "bad" Bach Strads. Personally, I think it's nonsense/grossly overstated. A great player will sound great on any Bach Strad in good working order.
.....
If you have a return option then you can try out a Bach Strad Model 37 without risk so that's a safe option to explore. |
+1, not only the largest selling, but the most copied... I've owned and played many of the other popular makes and models for long stretches of time... there's nothing quite like a Bach on stage, in the hall. |
Absolutely no disrespect intended, but I disagree.
Yes, a Bach 37 is an extremely popular horn for good reason, but a blanket statement like “If you're going to own only one pro level trumpet then the one to own is the Bach Strad Model 37” is not necessarily accurate for many players. Again, I am in no way criticizing the venerable 37, but there are far too many others fine horns out there that work as well or better FOR INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS. We’re not all the same. we don’t all look for the same things in a trumpet. I certainly would not tell anyone that my personal horn preferences are absolutes, I don’t think making the same statement about a 37 is any more valid.
YES, Bach makes great instruments, but so do many many other companies.
Brad |
The basis of my comment is that the player will adapt to any horn he or she is playing consistently and that as long as that horn is a decent horn in good working condition it will serve the player adequately and, in fact, the player will not exceed the horn's capabilities.
In my view the mouthpiece is more critical than the horn because lots of adjustments in the perceived performance of a horn can be made by changing the characteristics of the mouthpiece.
I have over 50 horns in my collection of historically significant pro level horns. Are there differences between horns? Certainly. Are the differences "night and day." No. For the most part the differences are subtle. In a blind test you wouldn't know with certainty which of the horns you're playing or I'm playing based solely on playing characteristics or sound. In fact, Wayne Bergeron played my 1933 King Silvertone and said, "This plays like a modern horn."
For most players the differences in horns are exercises in splitting hairs. Furthermore, the differences are based on perceptions. Perceptions may or may not match reality. The horn you think is "free blowing" one day is the same horn you think is "a little stuffy" another day. None of us know for certain what the "best" horn for us is. How many horns do you even play test before making a decision?
So, back to my point that the player adapts to whatever horn he or she is playing. If it's a decent horn in good working condition then the player makes it work. Is there a better horn for that player? Maybe. It's a crap shoot. We change physically every day. We try different mouthpieces. What we perceive as "better" in the moment may not be better over the long run. And, of course, there are no guarantees that this, that or some other horn will be "better" for you today, tomorrow and farther into the future.
The above being said, inasmuch as no one knows how a horn is going to work out in the long run, inasmuch as choosing a horn involves some degree of guessing about the future, inasmuch as choosing a horn reflects your perception of probabilities, if you're going to own only one horn why not own the horn with the most solid record of satisfactory performance, the horn you're most likely going to be expected to match up with in a pro level section? Why not play the statistical odds?
The Bach Strad Model 37 is a great horn for some players and not as great a horn for other players. No horn is the "be all" and "end all." If you play test horns and like something better than the Bach Strad Model 37 then more power to you, go ahead and buy it and enjoy it. Even if it's not better you will adapt to it if it is a decent horn in good working condition and it will work out OK until you find something else you think you like better.
My recommendation of the Bach Strad Model 37 as the horn to own if you own only one pro level horn is based solely on the overwhelming acceptance and popularity of that model among both amateurs and pros, the proven statistical probability that it will work well for you. This recommendation in no way endorses the Bach Strad Model 37 as the "best" horn nor does it negate or dispute the excellence of horns made by other manufacturers.
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | I've been very consistent on this point over the years: If you're going to own only one pro level trumpet then the one to own is the Bach Strad Model 37. It's the largest selling pro horn out there and if you pay a fair price for a used one you'll be able to sell it for what you have invested in it. A Xeno is an excellent horn but the safest bet overall is a Bach Strad Model 37.
There has been a lot of comment about "bad" Bach Strads. Personally, I think it's nonsense/grossly overstated. A great player will sound great on any Bach Strad in good working order.
.....
If you have a return option then you can try out a Bach Strad Model 37 without risk so that's a safe option to explore. |
+1, not only the largest selling, but the most copied... I've owned and played many of the other popular makes and models for long stretches of time... there's nothing quite like a Bach on stage, in the hall. |
Absolutely no disrespect intended, but I disagree.
Yes, a Bach 37 is an extremely popular horn for good reason, but a blanket statement like “If you're going to own only one pro level trumpet then the one to own is the Bach Strad Model 37” is not necessarily accurate for many players. Again, I am in no way criticizing the venerable 37, but there are far too many others fine horns out there that work as well or better FOR INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS. We’re not all the same. we don’t all look for the same things in a trumpet. I certainly would not tell anyone that my personal horn preferences are absolutes, I don’t think making the same statement about a 37 is any more valid.
YES, Bach makes great instruments, but so do many many other companies.
Brad |
The basis of my comment is that the player will adapt to any horn he or she is playing consistently and that as long as that horn is a decent horn in good working condition it will serve the player adequately and, in fact, the player will not exceed the horn's capabilities.
In my view the mouthpiece is more critical than the horn because lots of adjustments in the perceived performance of a horn can be made by changing the characteristics of the mouthpiece.
I have over 50 horns in my collection of historically significant pro level horns. Are there differences between horns? Certainly. Are the differences "night and day." No. For the most part the differences are subtle. In a blind test you wouldn't know with certainty which of the horns you're playing or I'm playing based solely on playing characteristics or sound. In fact, Wayne Bergeron played my 1933 King Silvertone and said, "This plays like a modern horn."
For most players the differences in horns are exercises in splitting hairs. Furthermore, the differences are based on perceptions. Perceptions may or may not match reality. The horn you think is "free blowing" one day is the same horn you think is "a little stuffy" another day. None of us know for certain what the "best" horn for us is. How many horns do you even play test before making a decision?
So, back to my point that the player adapts to whatever horn he or she is playing. If it's a decent horn in good working condition then the player makes it work. Is there a better horn for that player? Maybe. It's a crap shoot. We change physically every day. We try different mouthpieces. What we perceive as "better" in the moment may not be better over the long run. And, of course, there are no guarantees that this, that or some other horn will be "better" for you today, tomorrow and farther into the future.
The above being said, inasmuch as no one knows how a horn is going to work out in the long run, inasmuch as choosing a horn involves some degree of guessing about the future, inasmuch as choosing a horn reflects your perception of probabilities, if you're going to own only one horn why not own the horn with the most solid record of satisfactory performance, the horn you're most likely going to be expected to match up with in a pro level section? Why not play the statistical odds?
The Bach Strad Model 37 is a great horn for some players and not as great a horn for other players. No horn is the "be all" and "end all." If you play test horns and like something better than the Bach Strad Model 37 then more power to you, go ahead and buy it and enjoy it. Even if it's not better you will adapt to it if it is a decent horn in good working condition and it will work out OK until you find something else you think you like better.
My recommendation of the Bach Strad Model 37 as the horn to own if you own only one pro level horn is based solely on the overwhelming acceptance and popularity of that model among both amateurs and pros, the proven statistical probability that it will work well for you. This recommendation in no way endorses the Bach Strad Model 37 as the "best" horn nor does it negate or dispute the excellence of horns made by other manufacturers. |
I believe I better understand your points now, and I agree.
Wow, two trumpet players AGREEING on something? Must be the first sign of the Apocalypse!😉
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I recently played on both a brand new Bach 37 and brand new Xeno 8335. The Yamaha Xeno played with great response, ease and flexibility and had a colorful, vibrant, and resonant sound. It was an amazing horn that I contemplated purchasing - very similar to my Benge in some ways (without that Benge 4th partial). The Bach played Ok.
Don't buy into hype or heritage or even posts on the internet. The proof is always in the pudding. Maybe there are tweaks that could be done to improve things, but if you have two horns in front of you, in my opinion, the horn that plays better and sounds better is better - end of story.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:45 pm Post subject: Getting a Professional Horn |
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To the young person thinking about getting that first pro horn. Involve your teacher if at all possible. If you could go with them to a store that has more than one brand, perhaps you could try Bach, and Yamaha, or Schilke. Of, if they have used horns of those brands. They would all hold their relative value
should you get down the road and want to change again. Bach, Yamaha, and Schilke are pretty much bullet proof. If you end up not liking the sound down the road or go looking for something different they will get your value in money back. I've never owned a Bach but when I went looking for a horn a couple years ago to comeback and play again I had a couple on the line through TH here that I just wasn't quick enough to pull the trigger on. Bach will be in demand no matter what. If you can, involve your teacher and try several new and or used horns. Good Luck,
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
My addition to what has already been said, is that regarding the Yamaha, I'd try the standard 8335, rather than the 8335RGS, as the standard 8335 like the Bach 37, has a standard tuning slide configuration (and yellow brass bell.
Others may disagree, but my experience not just with me personally, but with other people I have helped in person, is that if you try a Xeno, then you should try it with the supplied Yamaha mouthpiece, if you personally have a Bach mouthpiece, as as I discovered when I got my Xeno, and as a colleague found recently, the Xeno plays better with the mouthpiece inserted slightly further into the receiver, and unless Bach mouthpieces have changed recently in this regard, Yamaha mouthpieces insert 1mm further than Bach (at least all Yamaha mouthpieces I have tried insert 1mm further than the Bach mouthpieces I own).
The reason I insist on making this point, as I also have a Bach 37, and I thought that the new Xeno I was play testing as its possible replacement, played very stuffy, until I noticed this issue. I won't bore a newer player will details about mouthpiece sleeves, but switching to an identical mouthpiece which inserted this extra 1mm, opened up both the blow and sound of the Xeno.
A colleague recently had the exact same experience. I swapped his Bach 3C with one of my sleeved 3Cs, and he was shocked at the difference.
I know I'm going on, but unless this issue is considered, I don't think that you can properly compare the Bach 37 and Yamaha Xeno, as the Bach 37 will play better with at least my Bach mouthpieces.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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zaferis
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2330
Location: Beavercreek, OH
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | I've been very consistent on this point over the years: If you're going to own only one pro level trumpet then the one to own is the Bach Strad Model 37. It's the largest selling pro horn out there and if you pay a fair price for a used one you'll be able to sell it for what you have invested in it. A Xeno is an excellent horn but the safest bet overall is a Bach Strad Model 37.
There has been a lot of comment about "bad" Bach Strads. Personally, I think it's nonsense/grossly overstated. A great player will sound great on any Bach Strad in good working order. |
+1, not only the largest selling, but the most copied... I've owned and played many of the other popular makes and models for long stretches of time... there's nothing quite like a Bach on stage, in the hall. |
Absolutely no disrespect intended, but I disagree.
Yes, a Bach 37 is an extremely popular horn for good reason, but a blanket statement like “If you're going to own only one pro level trumpet then the one to own is the Bach Strad Model 37” is not necessarily accurate for many players. Again, I am in no way criticizing the venerable 37, but there are far too many others fine horns out there that work as well or better FOR INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS. We’re not all the same. we don’t all look for the same things in a trumpet. I certainly would not tell anyone that my personal horn preferences are absolutes, I don’t think making the same statement about a 37 is any more valid.
YES, Bach makes great instruments, but so do many many other companies.
Brad |
I will make a distinction between what "professional" instrument to recommend to a first-time buyer, someone needing to get away from a beginner instrument, something that will serve their grwoth well vs. a professional trumpet player looking for a new or different professional instrument.
As with many makers, the variations are endless. As a pro, you know what to look for, and what you're looking for, what your specific needs are, what aids you to highlight your strengths and conquer your weaknesses - all trumpets and models are not equal.
So to recommend a singular trumpet that will serve a growing student/player, help them learn what a classic tone is, one that will allow them to advance and consistently produce that vibrant, flexible, blendable professional tone. That answer is a Bach 37 (preferably an Anniversary model 19037)
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | I know I'm going on, but unless this issue is considered, I don't think that you can properly compare the Bach 37 and Yamaha Xeno, as the Bach 37 will play better with at least my Bach mouthpieces.
All the best
Lou |
Interesting. I suspect that all my unsatisfying Xeno trials were with Bach mouthpieces. Never thought to try one with a Yamaha mouthpiece. Thanks for the perspective.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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spitvalve
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Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 2159
Location: Little Elm, TX
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:51 am Post subject: |
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The Bach likely has the best resale value. I have a Bach I bought new 28 years ago for just over 900 bucks and recent sales of high-mileage models similar to mine have averaged between $1000 and $1200 on eBay. If it's been babied like mine it can go for more. Not selling mine, BTW.
_________________
Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 705
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:10 pm Post subject: Getting a professional horn |
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There has been alot of good input here. One could probably narrow a search down to two or three brands like Bach, Yamaha, and Schilke for instance. As Zaferis states though there are no absolutes in this search and it is a search for someone else. Lou pointed out something that should be so obvious I should have thought about that, too. Playing a horn that matches the set up of a Bach 37 if you try a different brand, and then use that mpc. too. If and when this young person gets a professional horn they aren't locked into it for life. If the person takes lessons and finds after some time that it isn't perfect that field of candidates is still there to try and choose from. Isn't that one of the great things about being a player?
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | I know I'm going on, but unless this issue is considered, I don't think that you can properly compare the Bach 37 and Yamaha Xeno, as the Bach 37 will play better with at least my Bach mouthpieces.
All the best
Lou |
Interesting. I suspect that all my unsatisfying Xeno trials were with Bach mouthpieces. Never thought to try one with a Yamaha mouthpiece. Thanks for the perspective. |
Hi Cheiden
You are very welcome. I'll tell you a little history. I started with a Bach 7C, and still played it when I had my first professional trumpet, a Yamaha YTR-6335HGII. I also used this 7C on my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford trumpet, my spare. At the time I played a Bach 184ML cornet. I switched to a Bach 3C in 2005. I loved it on my Bach 184ML cornet, but was never really happy with it on my 6335HGII or Oxford trumpets. When I changed to a Bach 37, my 3C worked well.
Around three years ago, the intermittent sticking first valve on my Bach 37, drove me to the point that I started looking for a replacement trumpet. Being broke at the time and buying anything being dependent on finding a retailer who would take my like new Besson 928 Sovereign in for trade against something reasonably priced, I ended up trying an ex-demo Xeno II.
I found it very stuffy, both in sound and feel, with a difficult upper register. Remembering that I liked my previous Yamaha trumpet with a 7C, knowing about gap by this time, and coincidentally having a sleeved copy of my 3C (sleeved by a UK tech who was experimenting with introducing a sleeve system), which inserted further, I got them all out. The three or so original Bach 3Cs I have, inserted 24mm in the receivers of both my Bach 37 and the Xeno II. The supplied Yamaha 16C4, my Bach 7C and this sleeved 3C, all inserted around 25mm.
I found that the Xeno II and my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford played well with all the mouthpieces that inserted 25mm, but not any that inserted 24mm.
I bought the Xeno II, later experimenting on the Xeno II and Oxford with Jim New's gap adjustor, and confirmed that yes, a 25mm insertion amount works for me on the Xeno II, and since this is the insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4, I personally do not think this is my gap preference, rather that this is what the Xeno is designed to play well with, hence my suggestion for people trying the Xeno to initially try them with a Yamaha mouthpiece, so that they are trying it with nearer to an optimum gap.
Somebody may say in return, that this 25mm insertion amount is only my preference, fair enough, but since my preference matches the amount of the supplied mouthpiece, I don't believe that this is the case.
Additionally, a newish player who plays in my husband's jazz band, had previously been playing predominantly my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford and occasionally my Bach 37, with one of my James R New 6.5 sleeved mouthpieces, as he is primarily a brass bander and owns only a cornet. Another player in the band kindly gave him an older 3 digit model number Yamaha trumpet (offhand I don't know the model number). I lent him a Bach 3C to go with it, as all my mouthpieces sleeved with a James R New sleeve are with my trumpets, but he couldn't get on with it at all. Said that it was very hard to play and stuffy. I said leave it with me, and next time I saw him, I lent him the original sleeved 3C which I used with my Xeno before I started using James R New 6.5 sleeves, and he liked it immediately. Again, that 1mm further insertion amount made all the difference.
Anyway, I hope that I haven't bored you.
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | ...
I found that the Xeno II and my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford played well with all the mouthpieces that inserted 25mm, but not any that inserted 24mm.
...
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Have you determined the amount of actual 'gap' with the 25mm insertion?
Do you have any mpc that 'bottom out' by touching the beginning of the leadpipe - what's the insertion measurement of those?
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | ...
I found that the Xeno II and my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford played well with all the mouthpieces that inserted 25mm, but not any that inserted 24mm.
...
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--------------------------
Have you determined the amount of actual 'gap' with the 25mm insertion?
Hi JayKosta
No, as since calculating gap requires calculating exit wall thickness etc., I have never bothered working out the actual gap, and have just compared insertion amounts. Although there may be slight differences in exit wall thickness and actual gap, I am completely confident that replicating the 25mm insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece, is the way to go, providing you are playing something along similar lines, such as a Bach C cup.
Do you have any mpc that 'bottom out' by touching the beginning of the leadpipe - what's the insertion measurement of those?
No, sadly. Sorry, maybe I'm being defensive in advance, but why are you asking? I have a feeling that you are saying that I should be considering actual gap rather than insertion amount (if I'm wrong I apologise), but I really don't think that it really matters. Yamaha trumpets are pretty consistent in my opinion. No doubt the actual gap on my Xeno II with the supplied Yamaha 16C4 is pretty much the same as someone else's Xeno II with their supplied Yamaha 16C4.
In a nutshell, I'm saying that if you play a Bach mouthpiece, and it inserts 24mm in your Xeno, that it will play and sound more open, if you increase the insertion amount to 25mm. Additionally, slightly controversial, but my experience is that a Xeno with a 25mm insertion amount, has a similar amount of blow resistance to a Bach 37 with a typical 1/8" gap.
Yes, of course, some people may prefer a Yamaha Xeno with a 24mm insertion amount, but these same people may very well prefer a Bach 37 will a considerably larger gap than 1/8". What I'm trying to say, is that a true comparison cannot be made unless you optimize the gap on each, which in the case of the Xeno, at least in my opinion, is most likely if you try it with a Yamaha mouthpiece, as irrespective of personal taste, a Yamaha Xeno with the supplied 16C4, will gap as intended by Yamaha.
Anyway, that is the point I'm trying to make.
Jay
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | ... I have a feeling that you are saying that I should be considering actual gap rather than insertion amount (if I'm wrong I apologise), but I really don't think that it really matters. ... |
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My intent was to learn what actual gap was working best for you - the equipment that I use is different than yours, so 'insertion amount' is likely not directly comparable.
And thanks for you detailed explanation of the differences you found between 24mm and 25mm insertion. It might be useful when play-testing Yamaha (or other brands too) horns to try a selection of mouthpieces rather than with just a single one.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | ... I have a feeling that you are saying that I should be considering actual gap rather than insertion amount (if I'm wrong I apologise), but I really don't think that it really matters. ... |
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My intent was to learn what actual gap was working best for you - the equipment that I use is different than yours, so 'insertion amount' is likely not directly comparable.
Hi Jay
Thanks very much for the clarification. I'm very sorry for being defensive. Sorry, I'm not sure what actual gap is working best for me, but I imagine that it will probably be different on different trumpets anyhow, so probably no more useful than comparing insertion amounts. I found Jim New's gap modulator very useful for determining the ideal insertion amount of the same mouthpiece on different trumpets.
And thanks for you detailed explanation of the differences you found between 24mm and 25mm insertion. It might be useful when play-testing Yamaha (or other brands too) horns to try a selection of mouthpieces rather than with just a single one.
You are very welcome, and I think so, as I would have returned the Xeno II, if I had only tried it with my stock Bach 3C mouthpiece.
Jay
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Louise,
Interesting comments about the 24 and 25 mm insertion on the Zeno.
I have been experimenting with gap a little on my trumpets. Interestingly, I found that the gap on my Schilke X3L with a Bach mounthpiece (1.5 C, 1.5C Sympnonic) is identical to the gap on my Yamaha 6335. (I am happy with the Schicke, not so much with the Yamaha right now.) I do not have a Bach to experiment with, so I do not have that comparison. When I get home this evening, I am going to try the 6335 with a Yamaha mouthpiece and see what happens. I got the 6335 used without playing banking on Yamaha consistency because I had played one and liked the characteristics of it, but this one has never quite been quite as open as the one I liked. (Been messing with gap given that the one I played was set up for a GR mouthpiece. No luck so far.)
By the way, it is not too hard to measure gap by marking the distance from the end of the receiver to the venturi on a rod or pencil and then marking the insertion of the mouthpiece (which you have already done). I would be curious about the gaps you have on the Bach and the Zeno. (Also wondering if the Zeno has a different receiver from other Yamaha trumpets) (Harrelson Trumpets also makes a nice Gap Measurement tool one can use.)
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Hi cgaiii
Sorry, I just typed you a long reply only to lose it, so will try again later.
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Billy B
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Have your teacher pick out a horn for you. If this is your first pro horn you don't have the expertise to make a good decision.
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Bill Bergren |
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